Licensed to carry black man shot by police

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I don't think the officer thought, Oh, a black man! Gotta shoot him! Do you think I'm stupid or something?

Implicit, or unconscious, racial bias where you discriminate based on race without even realizing it, on the other hand, is a real and well-documented societal problem. There is evidence that police officers are more likely to interpret actions by a black man as more hostile than the same actions by a white man, because of this implicit bias. There's a good chance the decision-making of the officer in this case was influenced by this unconscious bias.

Harvard even has a test for people to see how biased they are racially. You'd be surprised:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/u ... ndexrk.htm

Here are articles, one from a scholarly source and another from a news source, that explore these implicit biases in policing and criminal justice:

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article ... al_justice

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ce-system/

Implicit racial bias is what we're talking about here.

EDIT: Here's a more recent source, that speaks to this thread's issue directly:

http://www.livescience.com/55337-uncons ... -bias.html

As beneficii indicated implicit racial bias carried by the police is widespread. Here in Australia it's been recognized that people joining the police force have no exposure at all to lower socioeconomic groups and particularly other cultural groups. There tends to be an unhealthy preference to only associate with people like themselves, live in areas where there people like themselves and send their kids to all white schools.

There has been a heavy emphasis on Australian police recruits getting considerable exposure to other cultures (particularly indigenous) in order they properly understand cultural sensitivity and not make rash ignorant decisions when dealing with other cultures...

I did Criminal Justice in Australia about...15 years ago now (state run college).

We had to do mandatory aboriginal and other cultural studies, and policing of the same.

Classes always had token minorities, people from various income levels, and similar demographic diversity.

Not saying there's no problems, but the education was there at least 20 years ago (classes were the same for some time).

Naturally, they tend to use aboriginal police in aboriginal communities. That's taking it the next step further that...I have some issues with (doesn't really point to a unified nation at the state level for my liking).

It'd be interesting what the education/training is like in the US. They tended to be ahead of "us" in regards to police procedure for minorities and similar (as they've had to police them to a higher degree).

I question that say, a white person that's always around white people, will have innate biases when exposed to a different culture [or class]--language barriers are the biggest problem, and if everyone can speak the same language, it shouldn't be a problem at all. We're still dealing with nations that have similar education and social structure; people are far more alike than unlike when under the same flag with the same education.

I always knew I was transracial.

As to the actual incident that this thread is about. I withdraw any opinion about that. I still have a general feeling that the guy was killed, but things keep popping out that make it seem pretty complicated, so I'm not going to pretend that I know about it.

I DO know about living in the "ghetto" and about poor people. I won't bother to argue my point any further. In real life, I would have agreed with everything ZenDen said and also called him sir, because of his age and my age. It's ridiculous for me to act like I know more than he does when he's a lot older than I am, even if it's a topic that I'm personally familiar with.

I apologize for publicly disagreeing with you, Zen. It's not my place to argue with you in the first place and I'm clearly not going to change your mind.

@ ZenDen:

Wow. I might as well have been talking about pickles and ice cream, cuz then, maybe, I would‘ve better understood your reply.

I broke my OWN rule by revealing things in that post that I’ve never divulged, before, on this site; but, I thought it was really important to do so, so that you could see that I truly CAN relate to some of the things, some black people have experienced----but, I feel, now, that I made a mistake in doing so, because it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. (My rule is to not reveal any of the really bad things that have happened in my life, in a debate [IMO, it cheapens them]----but, to only reveal them if I think my doing so, could help someone.)

Bottom line, for ME, is that you’ll never, in a million years, convince me that the way I feel / think about this subject, is wrong----and, you’ll never convince me that you’re right, so…..

I leave this conversation, with you, here.

Hi SocOfAutism

As to the actual incident that this thread is about. I withdraw any opinion about that. I still have a general feeling that the guy was killed, but things keep popping out that make it seem pretty complicated, so I'm not going to pretend that I know about it.

I DO know about living in the "ghetto" and about poor people. I won't bother to argue my point any further. In real life, I would have agreed with everything ZenDen said and also called him sir, because of his age and my age. It's ridiculous for me to act like I know more than he does when he's a lot older than I am, even if it's a topic that I'm personally familiar with.

But even an "old fart" can still learn things. The thing about getting older, for me, is that you have plenty of time to review......

CORRECTION: I SAID IN AN EARLIER POST MY FRIEND BOB HAD BEEN EXECUTED BY CHICAGO POLICE SOMETIME NEAR THE END OF MY MACHINERY MOVING DAYS..IT HAPPENED IN '68...LONG BEFORE.
SEE: FORGETTING THINGS IS ALSO A FEATURE OF GETTING OLDER!

But I had many years to think and to analyze the reasons for this kind of thing happening. After I stopped working I found all the energy expended thinking about work (etc.) I could now spend thinking my own thoughts...it's been 11 years now since I retired....still get things wrong about 1/2 the time.

I apologize for publicly disagreeing with you, Zen. It's not my place to argue with you in the first place and I'm clearly not going to change your mind.

You can change my mind about many things...easily...but this one I'm pretty sure I have "nailed." But if you and others don't argue with me then I'll never learn, just get big-headed and stupid...and I'll try to be more complete, instead of gruff (there's really no reason for that) so others may understand my logic better.

I apologize for publicly disagreeing with you, Zen. OK, I accept, but if you stop disagreeing I'll be very disappointed. Old Farts make mistakes as well...who will correct us if not you? I appreciate discussing things with you and like that you have so much patience.

One reason (besides enjoying all the people here) I spend time here "jabbering on" about things is merely because I am older. I find events often happen in something close to a "generational" cycle so that the incidents (such as racial uprising and government oppression) I experienced and witnessed in my teens and twenty's, are "damped down" only often to reoccur (such as racial rioting). I note the similarities/differences and regurgitate what I remember. From my first memories I've always felt compelled to learn things...I guess this is what happens to the things I've learned (sometimes).

Please let me apologize to you and others...with these memories on my shoulders (if you will) I tend often to be short and (although I try not to be) dismissive. EXAMPLE: People making slight of the WWII atrocities has lead me to say things that got me an official reprimand from the board...that's how things can sometimes get away from me. My deepest apologies to anyone I may have "steam rollered"...it was stupidly unintentional.

I AGREE!!

I might also add that an after-the-fact video could ALSO be manipulation. What do we see----other than the obvious (a man dying)----we see a woman being respectful, while a weapon is trained on her boyfriend. She knew she was recording----it would've been really stupid of her, to be disrespectful, THEN, no.1; and no.2, how do we know, at-this-point, what happened BEFORE she began recording?

"Well-documented" does not equal "PROOF", because documents can be slanted by the writer, misinterpreted by the reader, etc.; and, even videos / photos can be misinterpreted by the viewer----or, slanted by the video-taker, as, IMO, could, very well, have been done in THIS case.

If you're WHITE----man OR woman----and, you have a gun on your lap when you're pulled-over, your chances of getting shot / killed, are VERY good!!

I'm thinking an UNconscious officer is incapable of making ANY decisions / biases----they might be there in his SUBconcious, but how could we know, if he's unconscious?

Hi again Campin_Cat

You said: Wow. I might as well have been talking about pickles and ice cream, cuz then, maybe, I would‘ve better understood your reply.

I broke my OWN rule by revealing things in that post that I’ve never divulged, before, on this site; but, I thought it was really important to do so, so that you could see that I truly CAN relate to some of the things, some black people have experienced----but, I feel, now, that I made a mistake in doing so, because it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Yep...VERY deaf ears. It wasn't until well after our posts that this occurred to me. IN EXPLANATION: Would it surprise you to know I had NO friends (including friendly relatives) until I met my wife when I was 18...like so many here? Socially (and associated niceties) I blunder about...I'm sorry I "blundered" here as well.

(My rule is to not reveal any of the really bad things that have happened in my life, in a debate [IMO, it cheapens them]----but, to only reveal them if I think my doing so, could help someone.)

I can relate. There have been terrible things in my life I won't even share with my wife of 54 years. You'd think that might make me much more sensitive...but it hasn't...it takes work.

But I'm working on it.

Bottom line, for ME, is that you’ll never, in a million years, convince me that the way I feel / think about this subject, is wrong----and, you’ll never convince me that you’re right, so…..

Wellll...they say "never say never." When I was younger, before much of my life, I would have agreed with you 100%; perhaps something may yet happen in your life to change your thoughts on the subject? For me, to think I will always think the same, frightens me a little. I now actively question all of my long held beliefs, and find some need to be updated, perhaps by you...or perhaps others?

I leave this conversation, with you, here.

And I look forward to more interesting learning from you (selfish, huh?).

The privation you lived through when you were young was something I did not experience; for me the lack was mostly all social/emotional. It's not easy to be able to put yourself in someone's shoes as they grew up, and for me (and others) it's especially hard. I do much better with cold facts. I should have tried harder...I apologize for not treating you like a human being instead of a disembodied voice in a paragraph. Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa.

EDIT: To add last paragraph, (again).

What would you consider proof? To me, if it's well-documented, and studies supporting it consistently appear in the peer-reviewed literature, then you should work on the assumption that it's real.

Moreover, I think looking at it with this approach, because of the documented pervasiveness of this bias, is a lot more fruitful than trying to defame a dead man with made-up bullcrap to make us feel better about what happened.



What are you talking about? I'm talking about implicit bias, where it influences your decisions even though you're unaware of it. Another word for this is "unconscious bias", because it emphasizes the unaware part. A key point about implicit bias is that it is automatic, often influencing your decision-making even though you are not aware of any such bias.

We are not aware of everything that goes on in our minds, and our decision-making process is always affected by unseen factors in our mind. This is the groundbreaking insight of modern psychology.

The purpose of the Implicit Associations Test is to reveal the implicit biases people have about race, what they automatically associate members of certain races with:



https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/education.html

I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

"One could argue that there IS no proof----only our conclusions. I'm guessing that for every study, there's a counter-study----and, every study can be skewed in favor of whomever's paying for it. IMO, the best we can do, maybe, is to read everything we can get our hands on, from BOTH sides of an argument, and take the best 3 outta 5, or something."

Yeah, there are people who say there is "no proof" of evolution, "no proof" of climate change, "no proof" of anything. They say we can't know anything about anything, so we might as well treat everybody's point as just as valid as any other, no matter how how made-up it is.

Sorry. I'm not buying it.

Implicit bias is real. Training against implicit bias is becoming more common among police forces in the US.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/maga ... _id=102011

I'd almost like to see them try that, me being blond and blue and lacking any criminal record, but the whole getting shot part sounds like a deal breaker. I've never been pulled over with a gun in my lap, but if I were, I'd be damned sure to tuck the thing out of sight before the cop got to my window, it's not like you don't have time while pulling over, and throwing it under the seat can be done pretty inconspicuously. Really, if someone wanted to shoot a cop who's pulling them over, the way to do it would be to already have the gun in your hand when they come to the window, maybe under a map or something, this whole "he went for the gun" thing doesn't make any sense on any level.

The whole thing kinda makes me want to get one of those personal dash cams, just in case.