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Chris72
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18 May 2007, 11:08 pm

Question: Do you think that rejecting inapropriate social behaviours is a good practice? Does she feel like she is boring or dull because we dont let her express herself in "inappropriate ways"? I know there is certainly a line for any child and I see the importance in it, I just wonder sometimes whether those strange behavioural tendancies will exist forever regradless of our conditioning and maybe embrasing or giving the outlet in a safe place will make her feel more at peace with herself. I dont want her to feel that because she wants to do things that are not allowed that she is a bad person or that something is wrong with her. I really feel that something is wrong with everyone else that cant hadle differences. Its been the same since witches were burned. If she is going to be persecuted for being a witch I hope only that she can be a proud witch and a just witch. Any thaughts on this?



Last edited by Chris72 on 20 May 2007, 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ticker
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19 May 2007, 12:02 am

As an Aspergers adult I am appalled that you are condoning and perpetuating unacceptable behavior in your autistic child. AS people often have difficulting learning and understanding appropriate social behaviors everything from social chit-chat, not being overly honest and how to sit still in public. Allowing your daughter to walk like a dog on a leash in public teaches her that she doesn't have to behave like a normal person which can lead years down the road to an Aspie thinking they don't have to obey laws. Her behavior is also very unladylike and can cause her problems learning how to act appropriate for a woman. Also the fact your daughter is ok with being in an inferior position suggests as she ages she is the type that would not fight back someone who wanted to sexually or physically abuse her. Your little game can teach her she is not the one in control of her body and physical boundaries. Aspie women are extremely prone to being raped and abused, so you don't need to be teaching her she is even MORE INFERIOR by allowing her to be a dog. This behavior actually can be the precursor to BDSM.

As far as does she feel she is boring or dull because she cannot behave in an inappropriate manner... as someone her age no she will not feel this. Autistics actually crave to learn the right way to do things and Aspies in general tend to be overly concerned with perfectionism. They want structure and they do want to know the why's and how's of everything.

Personally I think this behavior you are perpetuating is borderline child abuse. It is your responsibility as a parent to teach all your children correct social and moral behaviors. Having an autistic child it is even more important that the child be taught the right behaviors and not allowed to act out. If she doesn't learn the right way to do things, she will just follow the wrong way and make an absolute fool of herself as she gets older. Soon she will be old enough that the little doggy trick makes her look stupid, retarded, worthless and even slutlike and she will loose all respect among peers and teachers. Don't make the school years even more difficult for your daughter. Aspies get bullied enough as it is; you don't need to make her even more of a target.



carolgatto
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19 May 2007, 12:07 am

Just my opinion, but I believe they must have an outlet for these behaviors. Yes there are some behaviors that are not allowed in society and you must teach them that, but if it is not something that will harm them or someone else then give them a place for it. It is the same for me with self stimming behaviors, like hand flapping or spinning. They way I think of it in terms for people to understand is imagine having an itch in a place like your crotch or butt, you wouldn't exactly stand up at the PTO meeting and scratch it, but you can certainly go in the bathroom and do it......to deny that is like never being able to scratch that itch.

One other thing is that I have noticed that my 16 yr old aspie tends to keep some behaviors that are very childlike, but as he got older he learned he can only indulge them at home where he is safe and no one could make fun of him.



carolgatto
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19 May 2007, 12:11 am

Just my opinion, but I believe they must have an outlet for these behaviors. Yes there are some behaviors that are not allowed in society and you must teach them that, but if it is not something that will harm them or someone else then give them a place for it. It is the same for me with self stimming behaviors, like hand flapping or spinning. They way I think of it in terms for people to understand is imagine having an itch in a place like your crotch or butt, you wouldn't exactly stand up at the PTO meeting and scratch it, but you can certainly go in the bathroom and do it......to deny that is like never being able to scratch that itch.

One other thing is that I have noticed that my 16 yr old aspie tends to keep some behaviors that are very childlike, but as he got older he learned he can only indulge them at home where he is safe and no one could make fun of him.



Chris72
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19 May 2007, 12:38 am

Ticker wrote:
As an Aspergers adult I am appalled that you are condoning and perpetuating unacceptable behavior in your autistic child. AS people often have difficulting learning and understanding appropriate social behaviors everything from social chit-chat, not being overly honest and how to sit still in public. Allowing your daughter to walk like a dog on a leash in public teaches her that she doesn't have to behave like a normal person which can lead years down the road to an Aspie thinking they don't have to obey laws. Her behavior is also very unladylike and can cause her problems learning how to act appropriate for a woman. Also the fact your daughter is ok with being in an inferior position suggests as she ages she is the type that would not fight back someone who wanted to sexually or physically abuse her. Your little game can teach her she is not the one in control of her body and physical boundaries. Aspie women are extremely prone to being raped and abused, so you don't need to be teaching her she is even MORE INFERIOR by allowing her to be a dog. This behavior actually can be the precursor to BDSM.

As far as does she feel she is boring or dull because she cannot behave in an inappropriate manner... as someone her age no she will not feel this. Autistics actually crave to learn the right way to do things and Aspies in general tend to be overly concerned with perfectionism. They want structure and they do want to know the why's and how's of everything.

Personally I think this behavior you are perpetuating is borderline child abuse. It is your responsibility as a parent to teach all your children correct social and moral behaviors. Having an autistic child it is even more important that the child be taught the right behaviors and not allowed to act out. If she doesn't learn the right way to do things, she will just follow the wrong way and make an absolute fool of herself as she gets older. Soon she will be old enough that the little doggy trick makes her look stupid, retarded, worthless and even slutlike and she will loose all respect among peers and teachers. Don't make the school years even more difficult for your daughter. Aspies get bullied enough as it is; you don't need to make her even more of a target.



Ouch Ticker!
I have read some of your other posts and respect your opinion, so I need to clarify things with you so you have a better picture of what I am asking here.
1) Those 2 incidents were fairly iscolated, and pre diagnosis. I was not taking my daughter for a dog walk every where we went, they were just examples of extreme cases, where she REALLY wanted to play and I obliged, I said no 30 times for each of those yesses.
2) I dont allow her to do anything that is considered inapropriate in public. After the diagnosis we (her parents) have hired a behaviourist, changed her school after a long and difficult trial. Found a High Funcioning Autism playgroup for her every week. We encourage all of her posotive activities and are tireless advocates for her.
3) I am a very unstructured person who now lives every day with picture charts and routine schedules which drive me crazy, but they are good for my daughter so I do them.

THIS IS MY IMPORTANT QUESTION:
Are there things or behavious she would have that if discouraged could be interpereted as a regection? What if she likes sing in a funny voice and spin around? Would you reject that behaviuor or allow it? Would you tell her if in public that that is something you can do at home but not here? or would you say that is something you just dont do?



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19 May 2007, 1:31 am

The dog behavior would be best to do away with. Things like spinning, rocking or other stims as a person gets older they need to learn those things are best left at home. Or at least in my opinion. Maybe some people don't mind looking autistic. But for the higher functioning Aspie many will grow up to want to function in the real world. So it helps now if they start learning how to get along in the world. As one gets older it does seem best and yes is very possible to wait till you get home to sit and rock and have a quiet little meltdown at the end of the day. If you do these things in public it makes people have an opinion of you as some dumb retard even when you are young and you will not get treated as well as when you learn to behave properly.

Bad behaviors are hard to break. Case in point a friends autistic boy whom I think is the sweetest little boy will chuck objects across the room and hit people in the head. He doesn't do this to be mean, he thinks its fun flinging things and he likes for people to throw them back to him. Its a weird little game. He parents do not scold him and do not apologize to those hit by the objects. But the fact his parents allow this has created a bad habit in him that they will be hard pressed to break.

I know you didn't mean you do the walk the dog thing everywhere. But its just not a good habit and there are implications further down the line. Believe me about not teaching your daughter to lead an inferior role. What kind of autistic child do you want? What do you think your daughter wants of herself? Do you want to allow a disadvantaged child to act like a complete moron and lose respect and not know the right way to behave? Or do you want someone who can lead a productive adult life, have friends and possibly spouse and children? Bad child behaviors pave the way to bad adult behaviors. Too many parents of autistics are not being strong role models. That is why you see most austic teenagers and young adults these days are obnoxious. Most of the autistics in the group I belong to are like this and are impossible to be around. They are without manners and embarrassing. If your daughter likes pretend play then enroll her in a drama/acting class where it is socially acceptable to act like a dog if it fits the part.

The fact your wife doesn't like this dog thing also suggests it is inappropriate. You should respect her opinion. As a woman your wife knows better how to raise an appropriate acting young lady.



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19 May 2007, 8:11 am

Quote:
Ouch Ticker!
I have read some of your other posts and respect your opinion, so I need to clarify things with you so you have a better picture of what I am asking here.
1) Those 2 incidents were fairly iscolated, and pre diagnosis. I was not taking my daughter for a dog walk every where we went, they were just examples of extreme cases, where she REALLY wanted to play and I obliged, I said no 30 times for each of those yesses.
2) I dont allow her to do anything that is considered inapropriate in public. After the diagnosis we (her parents) have hired a behaviourist, changed her school after a long and difficult trial. Found a High Funcioning Autism playgroup for her every week. We encourage all of her posotive activities and are tireless advocates for her.
3) I am a very unstructured person who now lives every day with picture charts and routine schedules which drive me crazy, but they are good for my daughter so I do them.

THIS IS MY IMPORTANT QUESTION:
Are there things or behavious she would have that if discouraged could be interpereted as a regection? What if she likes sing in a funny voice and spin around? Would you reject that behaviuor or allow it? Would you tell her if in public that that is something you can do at home but not here? or would you say that is something you just dont do?


The dog thing went too far, and I know it was pre DX, and you stopped. I don't see a problem with it at her age, up to the point she is actually on a leash (even if it is just a string) and crawling on all fours to school or in a coffee shop! I would have told her she was a doggy who did not need a leash, and to duck down and pretend she was walking on all fours like this(and showed her how to walk lower to the ground). That would be finding a middle or the road in public!

I do agree with your concerns to an extent. My mother tried to stamp out a lot of my own differences to make me as NT as she possibly could. It did not work, and being told daily (sometimes hourly! :lol: ) that I was "unacceptible" to society, was very hard on my self esteem!

But, what do you do? I think that you need to tier all behaviors into one of three groups .
1.) This needs to stop now, it is not at all appropreate
2.) This is ok, I am going to let her continue but intervine if she goes "too far".
3.) Middle of the road, talk to her that is something better done "at home" or "in privacy" or "one more minute, and I am going to ask you to stop ok?"

Lets take an extremely inappropreate behavior in public, picking your nose (not something that is particularly creative however!) When my son was 5, he developed a real problem with this, now, most parents would say "don't do that" or "stop it". My son though, needed to be given a time when it would be ok, because lets face it, hard nasty boogers don't just "disapear!" usually on their own! :lol: although we all pretend they do!) I could not tell him to just "leave it" because he would then see himself living with it for the rest of his life, something he could not stand the thought of! So instead, I had to tell him, "this is not a good time, we pick our noses in bathrooms when we have some privacy!" I may even ask a leading question like "do you need to go to the bathroom now to take care of it?" Doing this, he saw an alternative way to get rid of the booger and could live with it for a few more minutes!

So, lets just say your daughter is singing in a funny voice, I would not ask her to stop completely, I used to have a lot of funny voices when I was a young teen, I would put them on and was actually rather funny doing a stand up comedy rountine! :D Of course, there is a time and a place for funny voices, and that is what you have to teach! Say, "I love your funny voices, but it it better if you use it at home, or wait until we are in the car" because some people are no fun and don't like to hear anything fun out in public!" This way, she has an outlet, and a reason why she can't do it that does not make her bad or wrong!

I think with a lot of behaviors, it really is not a matter of making the child "stop them" as it is giving them alternative activities, or teaching them when it is ok to do these things. There was a thread a few days ago about a little boy colouring all over stuff and the mom going crazy. During supervised drawing time, he started colouring on the table. She took the crayons away, so he started carving the table! She thought this took things too far, he was 5.

My mothers advice when I told her about this (she is visiting for 2 weeks) is to "spank the child and send him to his room because the child obviously knows no bounderies!" But, if you read the thread, other people suggested things like changing all the crayons / markers in the house to washable ones, providing white boards in many rooms, chalk paint for his room, whiteboard paint for his room, and even plaster of paris to carve into with dull tools so he could not hurt himself! The answers given, had little to do with "punishing him" or "stopping him" and more to do with giving him acceptable outlets! Yes, he needs to learn not to colour all over the house, yes, he needs to know he can't carve up the furnature, but do you do that by taking everything away if he misbehaves? As it was said, leaving his mark was a near compulsion, that is a very hard thing to deny, he needs a better outlet!



rachel46
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19 May 2007, 8:44 am

My 10 yr. old son (diagnosed a year ago) does stimming -used to flap his hands now sort of wiggles his fingers really fast in front of his face - does it mainly when he's extremely excited about something- he sometimes likes to spin too. I used to try to get him to stop completely but after much reading and being on boards like this I found that he HAS to do it. I think many spectrum kids, people (even NTs do something) do somthing.

The rule now is he can do it at home but when we are out "in the world" he needs to try his best to not do it. I will not let him be source of other's ridicule in public if I can help it - not until he's at an age where he can tell them to mind there own business.



Goku
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19 May 2007, 10:08 am

For my son, it was a tiger. I think his behavior came from wanting to escape reality because it was so hard for him to figure out. I remember him begging to know why God made him a person - he didn't want to be a human, he wanted to be an animal.

I never wanted to extinguish the behavior completely because I thought it was important for him but told him that he was a person, even though he didn't want to be, and when out in public, he had to walk on his feet like everyone else...but, in the pivacy of our home he could pretend to be a tiger as much as he wanted. Eventually, he outgrew it and now as a teenager is very aware of what is and is not appropriate behavior and does a good job of self-monitoring.