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Morlock
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10 Jun 2005, 7:21 pm

-The Carrot: Eternal reward for following it.
-The Stick: Eternal punishment for those who do not follow. Some people convert just for "fire insureance" (safety from Hell) even if they're skeptical about the rest of it.
Sense of Urgency: Your decision must be made NOW because you might die tomorrow! You cannot wait to die and then see if there is an afterlife. This ensures the church can influence you within your lifetime.
-Faith: The Bible states that you cannot prove or disprove the existance of God (though some try to). This ensures that you cannot argue a christian out of his belief.
-The Will of God: God, being an entity of infinite power, created morality, and thus is beyond all moral judgement by mortals. When good things happen, believers pray to God to thank Him. When bad things happen, they pray to God thanking Him that they were not worse.
-Pity for Nonbelievers: Believers feel sorry for the poor damned atheists and attempt and pray to bring him/her into the fold.
-Satan: this is a convenient scapegoat for all wrong things, since God in His infinite wisdom allowed Satan to influence stuff and people here.

This is not complete, but as far as I can tell Christianity is a belief defended on all fronts. Once it burrows into a person's psyche, there is not return. If any of this seems contradictory its because what the Bible says and what believers say often do contradict.



Bec
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10 Jun 2005, 9:16 pm

Morlock wrote:
Once it burrows into a person's psyche, there is not return. If any of this seems contradictory its because what the Bible says and what believers say often do contradict.


Sadly, that is every organised religion.



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11 Jun 2005, 12:54 am

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Some people convert just for "fire insureance" (safety from Hell) even if they're skeptical about the rest of it.


Bible wrote:
Blah! Those people go to Hell too, they're taking advantage of God, etc.!


It goes something like that. Basically, the Bible states that God doesn't like people who convert just for fire insurance. Don't know if they go to Hell or not, probably cause they don't really believe.


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11 Jun 2005, 9:43 am

hmm. I can definatly see where you are coming from. I used to be a very christain calvinist for a couple years, and the thought that everything is predetermined by god was a very comforting thought for me. Eventually, the logical problems I had with predetrimination and free will, as well as accepting the bible as a perfect revealation became too much for me to accept, and although I do beleive that it is quite likely to be a god, we can't know him except through direct personal revelation. and He hasen't done that to me, so I am a praticing agnostic for the moment. That was why I was so interested in christainity and why I couldn't accept it any longer.

The following is a quote from my blog

Quote:
At one time I believed in God + Christianity with all my heart and soul. Now I have doubts about his direct personal relations with humanity as a whole. How do I know the revelation of the bible is the revelation of the one true GOD set forth in the ontological argument? The revelation of the bible says it is grace, grace of god that alone that sustains faith. Oddly enough when I believed, or wanted to believe, I never truly understood what this meant until now. Is it really enough to believe in what one perceives? After all, hallucinations are when one does perceive something and essentially reacts inappropriately to it, such as mistaking a chainsaw engine for a motorcycle or the like. For the sake of sanity we assume many things(such as when our forefathers assumed the earth was flat, try suggesting otherwise to someone with no concept of gravity), but what does the assumption of god do for our sanity? The need to believe in something greater than ourselves? Why would we want to do so? Is it a reflection on our own frality and our desire to see or create something truly lasting in this world? perhaps we respond to a great many things inappropiatly, whether we realize it or not. We fail to recognize a old friend after many years seprated and treat them as strangers for they have changed greatly. We mistake a stranger for a friend in many a crowd. I believe this is at the heart of my paradox with my belief with god.


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rumio
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11 Jun 2005, 6:48 pm

It's the nature of belief isn't it - we believe something or not but logic is a tricky thing and I think you could make a logical argument for believing in God. Is life totally random, I mean life itself, not a person's individual life? Are we really just a result of the chance accumulation of enough conditions to create life forms? - pretty amazing huh if that's the case. In some ways it seems more logical to me to believe in a creative force that made us what we are and also to believe in pattern and meaning in life. Even if I'm wrong it makes my life better to believe that anyway - if there's nothing more to life than my ego experience it's a fairly poor outlook I'd say. Can pre-determination and free will not exist side by side? - if light can be a particle and a wave at the same time I don't see why not, just two ways of looking at the same thing.[/quote]



Morlock
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11 Jun 2005, 10:10 pm

rumio wrote:
It's the nature of belief isn't it - we believe something or not but logic is a tricky thing and I think you could make a logical argument for believing in God. Is life totally random, I mean life itself, not a person's individual life? Are we really just a result of the chance accumulation of enough conditions to create life forms? - pretty amazing huh if that's the case. In some ways it seems more logical to me to believe in a creative force that made us what we are and also to believe in pattern and meaning in life. Even if I'm wrong it makes my life better to believe that anyway - if there's nothing more to life than my ego experience it's a fairly poor outlook I'd say. Can pre-determination and free will not exist side by side? - if light can be a particle and a wave at the same time I don't see why not, just two ways of looking at the same thing.
[/quote]
Berate me for this if you will, but I think I'll invoke the anthropic principle: if the conditions of our universe did not allow for our existance, we would not exist. Furthermore, the reason were here is because the conditions of our planet and area of space allow for our existance. As for the thing about photons, that is just a misinterpretation of a statement that meant a totally different thing, like the "bumbelbees cant fly, but they do". Photons act as a wave in some circumstances, and a particle in others. What the Chaos does it mean??? does taht mean there's a God??? gonna have to do better than that.



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12 Jun 2005, 1:19 am

Prometheus wrote:
Eventually, the logical problems I had with predetrimination and free will...


May I ask what your problem with predestination is? Through logical reasoning I have come to the conclusion that it is a meaningless question.

Premise 1: God exists
Premise 2: God is all knowing
Premise 3: God created everything

Since God is all knowing, he knew before he made the universe what would happen and what would change if he made the universe differently. God then knew from the initial conditions of the universe what your choices would be, you have free will, but your mind and personality, the things that control your free will, were designed and created by an all knowing God. Therefore free will and predestination can, and must, coexist.

P.S. Since God is outside of the universe he cannot be deductively proven to exist or not with data from within the universe, it may be possible to inductively reason that he most likely exists or not, but not deductively. That is why Premise 1 was required above



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12 Jun 2005, 2:04 am

i am seriously impressed - a thread about god and religion which is courteous, thoughtful, INTERESTING, and hasn't got anyone telling me i'm going to hell cos i ain't a christian.

bloody well done, chaps (and i am NOT being sarcastic) - i shall look forward to reading the coming posts. :)



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12 Jun 2005, 11:18 am

I believe in god. Christanity is persistant because the bible is one of the number 1 first books created. There a good amount of people who believe in this religion as I do. Christanity was a religion that was spread hundreds of years ago.



Ante
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12 Jun 2005, 12:03 pm

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Last edited by Ante on 09 Nov 2005, 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rumio
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12 Jun 2005, 5:00 pm

okay Morlock you got me there, I really don't know very much about chaos theory and all that but your argument goes round in circles whether its 'anthropic' or not and it comes back to 'what conditioned the first condition?'. There must always have been something to bring something else into being so where did the first something come from huh?

Tim_p he the man!



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12 Jun 2005, 5:17 pm

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How can all the people who aren't sinners fit into Heaven? Will there be toilets in Heaven? What kind of food will be available? Will you have to clean yourself there? What will you do all the time? Is there some 24/7 cinema show everyone watches? What's the accomodation like? Does everyone get a penthouse apartment? Does God prefer buses or cars on Heaven's roads?

Supposing I was a good person who got to Heaven when I got there what age would I be? What age would my relatives and friends be (presuming they're not sinners)? What concerns me is I might like my Grandma to be there in her old age because she's always been an old lady to me but her ex-husband (if he's there) might want her at a younger age, how will this conflict be resolved? Will there be dinosaurs, insects and fish there too?


Don't know the answer to any of that.

If a babe in the womb was told there is a place with thousands of colors, they wouldn't understand. As the babe is born, it learns.

I beleive in heaven although I don't understand it. I believe I will learn.

BeeBee



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12 Jun 2005, 7:45 pm

I think heaven may be a life as a spirit, not a body, so you don't need food, toilets, cleaning (aspie heaven!) or cinemas or whatever. No carcass to maintain or keep out of trouble, yay!

I lean towards predestination, but I think one has some free will in unimportant matters.


'This is not complete, but as far as I can tell Christianity is a belief defended on all fronts. Once it burrows into a person's psyche, there is not return.'

I'm not sure that this says anything at all. Everything is a 'belief'. Isn't it? Everyone tries to defend their beleifs don't they? Once those beliefs burrow into a person's psyche, they're difficult to shift...some people think they're ugly or fat when they're not.

'If any of this seems contradictory its because what the Bible says and what believers say often do contradict.'

Well, everything humans do is flawed.



Morlock
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12 Jun 2005, 9:05 pm

rumio wrote:
okay Morlock you got me there, I really don't know very much about chaos theory and all that but your argument goes round in circles whether its 'anthropic' or not and it comes back to 'what conditioned the first condition?'. There must always have been something to bring something else into being so where did the first something come from huh?

Tim_p he the man!

What created God?



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13 Jun 2005, 1:11 am

Perhaps causality (cause and effect, the fact that everything has a cause and didn't just happen) only applies in the physical universe, perhaps time itself is different outside of the universe and God need not have a cause. Bassicly what I am saying is, I don't know the answer to your question, but I think your question may be flawed, though it is may seem odd I see no logical reason why God needs to have been made.

As causality clearly does apply in the physical world, what, Morlock, do you think brought the universe into existence? If, as many people theorize, our universe was born out of the death of another, then I ask, what made that previous universe? What do you think the ultimate source of space and matter is?

Oh and, Rumio, thanks, I'm not often complimented, you made my day! :D

Edit:Typo, I wrote "unviverse".



rumio
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13 Jun 2005, 4:44 am

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Oh and, Rumio, thanks, I'm not often complimented, you made my day!



no probs mate!