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Trojanofpeace
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04 Feb 2018, 1:06 pm

It seems some activists like to promote Aspergers as cognitive difference rather than a disorder.
This is primarily a social world and we are primarily a social species. Any condition that undermines social proficiency is a disadvantage, not just a difference. The reason they want to remove it from the DSM is so benefit providers can stop paying for it. Autism movements who are prolific in promoting such a cause are against those with autism, it's a conspiracy.

The inversion is usually the truth, that's my opinion anyway. What does anyone else think?



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04 Feb 2018, 4:20 pm

It is all of the above.

I like the word "disadvantage" more than "disorder". Disorder implies it is all your fault you are not doing well because of autism. "Disadvantage" implies a "two way street" a combination between how you are and the vast majority of people are. I am not minimizing the problems, as such a small minority we are at a profound disadvantage.

Of course Autism is literally a "difference" with most of the rest of the world.

I think Autism is both a "difference" and a "disorder". Such elements as extreme sensory sensitivities or bad multitasking is going to inhibit you no matter how accommodating society is. Yet with things like non verbal communication both reading others and how you present is often a value judgement based on majority thinking. In America poor eye contact makes people think you do not care or are shifty. In other cultures eye contact is considered rude. Yet even a true "disorder" is effected by society, in a big city sensory sensitivities are going to be more inhibiting then in a rural area.


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07 Feb 2018, 8:52 pm

I consider autism a disorder. With the work I do, I work very hard to be social and appear neurotypical because it's important for my success. I pull it off pretty well from what I can tell, but when I get home my brain is fried. My brain is simply using the analytical side in order to provide me with social skills. The analytic side is also being used for (gasp) analytical tasks, so it's working double duty as well. Besides, I had to learn those social skills over the years, and I still need to learn more.

Yep, I'd say that qualifies as a disorder, especially when I'm considered a "high functioning" autistic.



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08 Feb 2018, 3:31 pm

For every Aspie riding high on the wave of societal expectations there's three who have some form of social dysfunction which can be linked back to nuerodevelopmental differences in the brain

According to DSM any change in the brain that leads to dysfunction = disorder

not rocket science...



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08 Feb 2018, 4:24 pm

New Research Suggests Social Issues are Down to Neurotypicals more than Autistics

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Autism is seen, in popular representations, largely as a social and communication disorder. Formerly framed as stemming from an autistic lack of a “social instinct”, the current dominant idea is that something is deficient or missing in autistic social cognition. Often referred to as a cognitive deficit in “empathy” or “theory of mind”, much research on autistic social issues has focused on trying to clarify and detect this inside autistic brains and minds. The search for an elusive broken “theory of mind module” or “empathy mechanism” in the brain, and its ensuing cognitive manifestations, however, has led to conflicting results – with some scientists even concluding that autistic people feel too much empathy rather than too little.

Another view is that this is not simply an individual neuro-cognitive issue, but rather a wider social problem. Against the idea that autistic people have too much or too little anything, autistic neurodiversity movement advocates have long argued that the empathy problem is actually a two-way issue between neurotypicals and autistics, which only emerges when the line is crossed. Dubbed the “double empathy problem” by autistic scholar Damian Milton, this framing emphasises how communication and social encounters are always things that happen between people – meaning that any breakdown in communication is always relational and down to both sides, not just an innate issue with one or the other.

Not much empirical research has been carried out in this regard (most funding is directed to and by pathology paradigm proponents, who have no interest in pursuing a neurodiversity paradigm reframing of autism). However, a new collection of studies, published in Nature has given clear weight to the notion that autistic problems in socialising stem as much from the neurotypical side as the autistic side.

The three studies, each of which drew on different samples and used a variety of methodologies, initially all found that

‘observers’ first impressions of individuals with ASD engaging in real-world social behavior were found to be robustly less favorable than those of matched TD [i.e. neurotypical] controls […] these impressions were associated with reduced intentions to socially engage by observers’

In other words, they found that an important contributor to social and communication problems stemmed not from the autistic individuals, but rather from the neurotypical reactions, based on (by definition) exclusionary social attitudes and first impressions, which led to a decreased drive to interact with autistic individuals. That is to say, neurotypicals tend to decide, within moments of meeting autistic people, that autistic people are less worth socialising with than neurotypicals.

Building on this, one of the studies further compared evaluations between written communication and speaking in person. What it found was that autistic people were not rated negatively by neurotypicals when only their writing was assessed. Rather, it was how autistic people look, rather than the substance of what was said, that was the key factor in determining the neurotypical drive to exclude autistic individuals. This was further confirmed, note the researchers, when

‘a static image was sufficient for generating negative first impressions of those with ASD […] In contrast, first impressions of TD controls improved with the addition of a visual information’

In other words, an accompanying photo of an autistic individual had a negative affect on neurotypical perception of the value of the writer, whilst an accompanying photo of a neurotypical tended to have a positive affect.

'The reluctance of TD individuals to engage in social interactions with their ASD peers further limits the opportunities for individuals with ASD to practice their already fragile social skills. This can have a significant negative impact on the ability of socially aware and socially interested individuals with ASD to improve their social communication abilities and work toward more successful social integration'

'If our goal is to improve social interactions for individuals with ASD, it may therefore be equally important to educate others to be more aware and accepting of social presentation differences, rather than trying to change the many interwoven factors of self-presentation that mark the expressions of individuals with ASD as atypical.'

This fits precisely with the notion that the empathy problem goes both ways rather than from within autistic people, not to mention that this happens in the context of pervasive ableist norms and attitudes that seek to alter rather than accommodate autistic being.


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13 Feb 2018, 5:56 pm

I don't particularly mind the word disorder (and far prefer it to disability), but I agree with ASPOM that disadvantage is a far more correct word, and that both disadvantage and difference are true.


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13 Feb 2018, 8:20 pm

Well said, Skilpadde and APOM. That's also my perspective and you both expressed it well.



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14 Feb 2018, 10:45 am

People who insist that it's just a personality difference and not a medical condition never seem to be able to explain why a personality difference has so many comorbids and physical symptoms.


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15 Feb 2018, 8:30 am

Trojanofpeace wrote:
This is primarily a social world and we are primarily a social species. Any condition that undermines social proficiency is a disadvantage, not just a difference. The reason they want to remove it from the DSM is so benefit providers can stop paying for it. Autism movements who are prolific in promoting such a cause are against those with autism, it's a conspiracy.

I think you need to stop thinking about conspiracy. Healthcare is not the only route to provide assistance. In fact, autism support used not to come from healthcare, at all. Autism is not a healthcare issue. It is
- an educational issue, and
- a social stability issue.

As an educational issue, the money should come from local taxes, like property taxes, which is how education is typically funded in the USA. As a social stability issue, the money should come from state income taxes, which is how social welfare is funded in the USA. Therefore, we are talking about whether the money comes from the left hand, or from the right hand. And then, of course, there are non-profit organizations on top of all that.

Please stop this craze about social skills. You want to see where the world is trending toward?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-10-skills-you-need-to-thrive-in-the-fourth-industrial-revolution/
Image
All the neurotypical, social-related skills are down. All the autistic, analytic skills are up.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/extended-adolescence-when-25-is-the-new-181/
Teenagers are postponing adult-like behaviors, including: driving, drinking, sex, working a job, etc.

And in the last 15 years, the STEM curriculum in schools has been massively increased.

The world is trending in the autistic direction. And you are still admiring neurotypical skills?

- - -

As for "co-morbids" of autism, why don't people look at the symptoms of solitary confinement? Even a neurotypical person, after undergoing extended solitary confinement, will develop autism-like symptoms.

Autistic children don't communicate oral-aurally. They communicate visual-manually. If parents don't choose the visual-manual route, they are effectively leaving their children incommunicado. They are placing their children in solitary confinement, day after day, week after week, year after year. It's all very simple: compare the manual output of those parents that have underdeveloped autistic children, to the manual output that I have generated for my children, and you will understand why their children are stuck with sensory issues, anxiety issues, and intellectual disability, for life.

What have those parents made for their children with their hands? Have they drawn pictures? Have they made animation video clips? Have they built objects with building blocks? Have they assembled electronic circuits? Have they played musical instruments and created songs? Have they made posters for their children to give presentations in school? Have they hooked up their big screen TV so it can play multimedia?

If the manual output of the parents is empty, then chances are, so are the brains of their children: empty.

The "co-morbids" of autisms are the consequences of leaving the children under-communicated and underdeveloped. There is no mystery to any of that. You just need to look at the hands of those children's parents. Zero output? There you go.


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15 Feb 2018, 8:37 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
People who insist that it's just a personality difference and not a medical condition never seem to be able to explain why a personality difference has so many comorbids and physical symptoms.

Shortcoming in physical strength is a feature, not a bug. See

http://www.eikonabridge.com/Tomatoes.pdf

Our mammal ancestors were tetra-chromats: they used to see colors in 4 dimensions. Compared to our ancestors, we are all color-blind. Do you feel disabled because of that? Birds can fly, you can't. Do you feel disabled because of that?

Relative physical weakness is what historically has allowed autistic people to shine with their brains. Otherwise they would have been drafted into labor or warfare, like everyone else.

- - -

At the prevalence level of autism (or broad autism phenotype), which is 2%~5% it cannot possibly be a defect. If it were a defect, it would have been eliminated by evolution a long time ago. Autism is intended by Mother Nature. It has a purpose. The only problem is, most parents choose to be brainwashed by neurotypical ideals, and they totally ignore the strengths of their children.


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15 Feb 2018, 3:13 pm

If it's just a difference then it's not covered under ADA and they don't need disability payments for it or any accommodations and they just need to suck it up and adapt like introverts have to do since it's just a personality type. If they fail and not try hard enough, it's all their fault and they just need to try harder. They are also not covered for the IEP because it's not a disability, only a difference.


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15 Feb 2018, 6:20 pm

League_Girl wrote:
If it's just a difference then it's not covered under ADA and they don't need disability payments for it or any accommodations and they just need to suck it up and adapt like introverts have to do since it's just a personality type. If they fail and not try hard enough, it's all their fault and they just need to try harder. They are also not covered for the IEP because it's not a disability, only a difference.

This is precisely why some people are happy Aspergers is no longer in the DSM. In thier way of thinking if we are just different, the next step in human evolution etc why be in the “disease” manual?


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16 Feb 2018, 1:51 am

League_Girl wrote:
If it's just a difference then it's not covered under ADA and they don't need disability payments for it or any accommodations and they just need to suck it up and adapt like introverts have to do since it's just a personality type. If they fail and not try hard enough, it's all their fault and they just need to try harder. They are also not covered for the IEP because it's not a disability, only a difference.

Didn't I mention it is a social stability issue? Trust me, being a social stability issue, disability payments will continue. The least the upper class wants is social unrest. IEP will continue for those who wants it. The mechanism is already there. There are at least four other disabilities covered under IDEA: Intellectual Disability, Speech or Language Impairment, Specific Learning Disability, and Multiple Disabilities. Upper class elites would do anything to prevent social instability. Take for instance Mark Zuckerberg, who would go as far as proposing a Universal Basic Income for everyone.

We all know what autism is. On the one end of the spectrum, you see people suffering. On the other end of spectrum, you see successful and happy people that are even thankful for being autistic... they even celebrate for being autistic. Now, the brain structure, the way how the brains of these two extreme sets of people, is essentially the same. That's why we are all considered autistic. That much we know. Autism is how your brain works. Autism does not cause intellectual disability, or sensory problems, or lack of social or verbal skills, or anxiety. Autism does not cause any of those issues, in grown adults. Don't believe me? Just look around. Plenty of autistic people don't have those problems. Take a look at George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln. Yeap, they can even become presidents. Or Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs. Clearly, autism is not hindering the success of those people.

Underdevelopment is the cause of suffering in *some* autistic people. Underdevelopment exists because parents and schools have no clue that autistic children must be developed visually-manually. I look at what my hands have generated for my children, and I look at the hands of other parents, and I can only shake my head. Don't people realize that THAT is the root cause of their children's underdevelopment? Empty manual output equals empty brains in your children. You effectively keep your children in solitary confinement. Then, after 20 or 30 years, you expect them to be healthy?

Of course it is hopeless to educate everyone about using their hands. Trust me, I have tried. Parents would argue with me for years, and years, and never move a finger to draw one single picture for their children (and pictures are only a start... you can make so many more things with your hands). I mean, in all those years, my children have leaped forward, while their children are stuck where they were before. Not my problem. Parents and schools can continue to ruin the lives of these children, it's not my problem. It's a fact that our society has learning disability and is mentally ill. So, we will continue to have children and families suffering, and they will continue to require assistance. That's a fact. It's an artificially generated tragedy, but tragedy nonetheless. Those people will continue to be covered. That's not what's at stake.

There is nothing to do there for people that continue to choose to suffer or to cause tragedies. We need to forget about that segment of our society. Pay them and buy their silence. What needs to be done instead is to adapt our school system to the 21st century. Not just autistic children, but even neurotypical children nowadays are specializing at earlier and earlier age. It's becoming impractical to ask classroom teachers to cover everything. It's simply not economically feasible. Economy must be achieved by assembling children across geographies that share similar interests into virtual classrooms. These classrooms can be run by local parent chaperons, with remote teachers. That way, one single teacher can teach hundreds of children at once, making it economically feasible. I see technology playing a big part in the future of classrooms. AR (augmented reality) and robots will all make their way into classrooms. Classroom teachers will continue to cover basic subjects, but they will increasingly acquire the role of guidance provider. The way I see it, this trend is unavoidable. The good thing is parents will have increasing role in participating in education decisions, which is the way it should be.


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16 Feb 2018, 2:57 am

eikonabridge wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
If it's just a difference then it's not covered under ADA and they don't need disability payments for it or any accommodations and they just need to suck it up and adapt like introverts have to do since it's just a personality type. If they fail and not try hard enough, it's all their fault and they just need to try harder. They are also not covered for the IEP because it's not a disability, only a difference.

Didn't I mention it is a social stability issue? Trust me, being a social stability issue, disability payments will continue. The least the upper class wants is social unrest. IEP will continue for those who wants it. The mechanism is already there. There are at least four other disabilities covered under IDEA: Intellectual Disability, Speech or Language Impairment, Specific Learning Disability, and Multiple Disabilities. Upper class elites would do anything to prevent social instability. Take for instance Mark Zuckerberg, who would go as far as proposing a Universal Basic Income for everyone.

We all know what autism is. On the one end of the spectrum, you see people suffering. On the other end of spectrum, you see successful and happy people that are even thankful for being autistic... they even celebrate for being autistic. Now, the brain structure, the way how the brains of these two extreme sets of people, is essentially the same. That's why we are all considered autistic. That much we know. Autism is how your brain works. Autism does not cause intellectual disability, or sensory problems, or lack of social or verbal skills, or anxiety. Autism does not cause any of those issues, in grown adults. Don't believe me? Just look around. Plenty of autistic people don't have those problems. Take a look at George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln. Yeap, they can even become presidents. Or Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs. Clearly, autism is not hindering the success these people


Who is “we”?. The causes of autism is at best only partially known. It is not known why a higher percentage of autistics have intellectual disabilities or sensory sensitivities and without that knowledge you can not say autism is not at least a partial cause of these. All these historical figures autistic???. How are you so certain about this? The most you can say is that they had a number of autistic traits. Maybe they were maybe they were not.

Governments give aide for two main reasons civil disorder prevention and fear of powerful what interests can do. There is no reason to for anybody to fear the next Abraham Lincolns or people claiming they will be the next Einsteins are going to mug people or riot.


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16 Feb 2018, 7:41 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
... There is no reason to for anybody to fear the next Abraham Lincolns or people claiming they will be the next Einsteins are going to mug people or riot.

Isn't it ironic that you wrote your comment on the very same day it was revealed that Nikolas Cruz was autistic?


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16 Feb 2018, 8:36 pm

eikonabridge wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
... There is no reason to for anybody to fear the next Abraham Lincolns or people claiming they will be the next Einsteins are going to mug people or riot.

Isn't it ironic that you wrote your comment on the very same day it was revealed that Nikolas Cruz was autistic?

no relevance