Anybody else sick of "sociopathic heroes"?

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Spooky_Mulder
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01 Oct 2018, 8:41 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Then, in the MCU,

Loki = sympathetic villain

Ant Man and the Guardians of the Galaxy= anti-heroes

It’s also why hero and anti-hero combos are popular:

Superman and Batman

Spider-Man and Daredevil

Cylops and Wolverine

One plays by the rule book, the other discards all the rules.


But I really don't see Batman as an antihero. He's just a regular hero in my opinion. :|

Catwoman on the other hand is a prime example of an antihero


As stated Batman goes far beyond the norms that other heroes do. The classic phrase regarding his psychology as coined in, I believe the 80s, is he’s “one bad day away” from becoming a villain or like the Joker.

Catwoman, like Venom, it depends on what the source is. Batman focused comics - she’s a villain who has some redeeming moments. Catwoman’s spin-off comics she’s an anti-hero and this is because they depict her largely as fighting crime and saving the day rather than being focused on crime.



Spooky_Mulder
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01 Oct 2018, 8:47 pm

This is also why he’s nicknamed the DARK KNIGHT rather than white knight.



TW1ZTY
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01 Oct 2018, 8:52 pm

Spooky_Mulder wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Then, in the MCU,

Loki = sympathetic villain

Ant Man and the Guardians of the Galaxy= anti-heroes

It’s also why hero and anti-hero combos are popular:

Superman and Batman

Spider-Man and Daredevil

Cylops and Wolverine

One plays by the rule book, the other discards all the rules.


But I really don't see Batman as an antihero. He's just a regular hero in my opinion. :|

Catwoman on the other hand is a prime example of an antihero


As stated Batman goes far beyond the norms that other heroes do. The classic phrase regarding his psychology as coined in, I believe the 80s, is he’s “one bad day away” from becoming a villain or like the Joker.

Catwoman, like Venom, it depends on what the source is. Batman focused comics - she’s a villain who has some redeeming moments. Catwoman’s spin-off comics she’s an anti-hero and this is because they depict her largely as fighting crime and saving the day rather than being focused on crime.



Well like I've already said Batman is different depending on the story (just like Spider Man and all the other superheroes). I'm more used to his portrayal in the movies and The Animated Series from the 90's when he was the good guy who avoided killing when it wasn't necessary and would save people's lives regardless if they were innocent civilians or even thugs working for The Joker who were abandoned for dead (seriously why would anybody work for that psycho???)

I understand some of the comic books and other adaptations portray him as much darker but I guess I like the nicer Batman who had more respect for human life. But that's why I never got into comic books because like we both have pointed out they always change the characteristics of the superheroes depending on who the writer is.

And just because he's "The Dark Knight" that doesn't mean he's evil. Darkness is always misunderstood as being evil. Like Raven from Teen Titans was also dark but she was very moral too.



Spooky_Mulder
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01 Oct 2018, 8:55 pm

Animated series = hero

Batman & Batman Returns = anti-hero

Batman Forever & Batman and Robin = hero

Batman Begins = hero

The Dark Knight = anti-hero (in this case Bruce even saw that he wasn’t pure and this is partly why he wanted to elevate Harvey Dent, whom he saw as a white knight - granted this film focused on the darkness that’s inside of everyone)

The Dark Knight Rises = hero



Last edited by Spooky_Mulder on 01 Oct 2018, 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TW1ZTY
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01 Oct 2018, 8:57 pm

Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Animated series = hero

Batman & Batman Returns = anti-hero

Batman Forever & Batman and Robin = hero

Batman Begins = hero

The Dark Knight = anti-hero (in this case Bruce even saw that he wasn’t pure and this is partly why he wanted to elevate Harvey Dent, whom he saw as a white knight)

The Dark Knight Rises = hero



Yup pretty much. :)



TW1ZTY
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01 Oct 2018, 9:55 pm

TW1ZTY wrote:
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Sometimes creators don't want to admit that what they've made is actually closer to a villain than an anti-hero. Instead, they try to convince the audience that the character is going to change, and the other characters act accordingly. This kind of writing is frequently accompanied by a moral about how everyone can be forgiven, no matter what they've done. However, such logic can only be applied to trivial matters, and when bad writing is involved the creators have a tendency to apply it to inappropriate situations. You can't make someone a Nazi/ cult leader and then turn around and say "It's OK, they've changed, you have to forgive them now". :roll:


That's exactly how I feel about characters like Reddington in The Blacklist. :P

He feels more like a villain to me than an antihero. He's supposed to be helping the FBI solve crimes but he has manipulated and exploited the hell out of them to the point that he might as well own the FBI and many times on the show it seems like innocent people get hurt or killed either directly or indirectly because of him. Like those CDC guards on the train in the episode "Miles McGrath" where he sent Tom undercover with a gang of mercs to steal the deadly virus samples of the train. Those four guards were likely killed or severely injured (with Tom helping to take down two of them) and Redding basically used this as an opportunity to steal a sample of one of the deadly diseases for himself before the FBI showed up to arrest the guys. And the FBI somehow allows him to get away with murdering people willy nilly just as long as he helps them to catch their man. :roll:


Another prime example of this is Vageta in Dragon Ball Z. He was a ruthless villain on the show who blasted away innocent people trying to get to Goku and somehow he ended up joining the good guys and he was STILL killing innocent people with absolutely no remourse.

Like in the episode when he was fighting that female android on a highway and they caused a lot of cars to explode in fatal crashes. Then there was the truck driver who had the misfortune of pulling up behind the android as Vageta was about to blast her with a powerball and she dodged it at the last second causing Vageta to vaporize the poor innocent driver instead. Vageta of course couldn't care less about the guy he just killed.

Somehow we were supposed to forgive Vageta because he switched sides but he still had no problem with killing innocents while trying to stop the bad guys. Seriously why did Goku and the others tolerate him? :roll:



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02 Oct 2018, 12:14 am

My favorite antihero of all time is Lupin.


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TW1ZTY
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02 Oct 2018, 11:08 am

And honestly I don't think most antiheroes are true sociopaths if they are helping or protecting somebody they really care about.

A true sociopath has no empathy or compassion for anybody.

And that kind of reflects on the fact that in real life you can have criminals who still have a moral concious. Like people in the mafia for example. Whenever they kill somebody they often send money to their wife and kids to make sure they are being taken care of because they do believe in taking care of family. They also tend to not get their own wives and children involved with their crimes for that same reason.



TW1ZTY
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07 Oct 2018, 10:42 am

I think another good example of an antihero would be Nathan Drake from the Uncharted games.

He's a criminal who travels the world stealing treasure and rare artifacts to sell for profit and yet he still has a concious. He's not the type to kill an innocent person such as a museum security guard and he only kills people in self defense. Plus he always ends up saving the world from more evil criminals in every gay.



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07 Oct 2018, 11:26 am

TW1ZTY wrote:
I'm talking about characters who are heavily implied to be either sociopaths or narcissists but are still the "heroes". People like Reddington in "The Blacklist", Dexter in "Dexter", pretty much every character in "American Horror Story" or "Game of Thrones", or even James Bond in all the 007 movies (even if he's saving the world from badguys the fact that he can kill with no remorse and plays around with women's hearts without being attached to them is disturbing).

I really despise these kinds of characters because not only do I get the impression that they're leading the audience to believe that being a sociopath or narcissist makes you some kind of superhuman who is smarter and braver than everybody else, but the way they get portrayed in the media using their lack of empathy or guilt to "save the world" is totally absurd. What's even more absurd is when they try to redeem these characters by showing them being emotionally attached to only one character on the show like a child or love interest or sibling or whatever, and at the same time showing complete disregard for the lives or wellbeing of everybody else on the show.

I'm not an expert on psychology and I don't know everything about sociopaths or narcissists but the one thing I do know for a fact is that they feel no real compassion or empathy for ANYBODY. Everyone I know who has ever studied psychology has told me that. So the idea of a "good" psycho who uses his criminal powers to stop crime and is always saving the one person he truly cares about is such crap. I feel like these type of people should be despised, not admired!

Does anybody else get bothered by this misrepresentation of sociopaths and narcissists in the media? Especially ones who are "heroes"?



Every character in Game of Thrones is a sociopath? you lost me there....who is the sociopathic hero in GoT? I mean a comment like that just seems to come from someone who hasn't actually watched the show, or followed the story line at all.

I can kind of see your point with that Dexter show from what I have heard, but I have never watched it myself so not sure how bad or good of a character he really is. If he really is a remorseless psychopath then I do agree they should not frame characters like that as heroes. But I am not sure how it really pertains to Game of Thrones, there are some terrible characters but they aren't the 'heroes' of the story per say.


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07 Oct 2018, 11:37 am

TW1ZTY wrote:
And honestly I don't think most antiheroes are true sociopaths if they are helping or protecting somebody they really care about.

A true sociopath has no empathy or compassion for anybody.

And that kind of reflects on the fact that in real life you can have criminals who still have a moral concious. Like people in the mafia for example. Whenever they kill somebody they often send money to their wife and kids to make sure they are being taken care of because they do believe in taking care of family. They also tend to not get their own wives and children involved with their crimes for that same reason.


Actually its more like it doesn't come natural. Sociopaths can however choose to lead a lifestyle that does not hurt other people...actually they can be good paramedics to because they don't get as disturbed by injuries/blood so they can just get on with what they need to do. Basically they aren't all bad people, just not very compassionate.


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07 Oct 2018, 12:09 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I'm talking about characters who are heavily implied to be either sociopaths or narcissists but are still the "heroes". People like Reddington in "The Blacklist", Dexter in "Dexter", pretty much every character in "American Horror Story" or "Game of Thrones", or even James Bond in all the 007 movies (even if he's saving the world from badguys the fact that he can kill with no remorse and plays around with women's hearts without being attached to them is disturbing).

I really despise these kinds of characters because not only do I get the impression that they're leading the audience to believe that being a sociopath or narcissist makes you some kind of superhuman who is smarter and braver than everybody else, but the way they get portrayed in the media using their lack of empathy or guilt to "save the world" is totally absurd. What's even more absurd is when they try to redeem these characters by showing them being emotionally attached to only one character on the show like a child or love interest or sibling or whatever, and at the same time showing complete disregard for the lives or wellbeing of everybody else on the show.

I'm not an expert on psychology and I don't know everything about sociopaths or narcissists but the one thing I do know for a fact is that they feel no real compassion or empathy for ANYBODY. Everyone I know who has ever studied psychology has told me that. So the idea of a "good" psycho who uses his criminal powers to stop crime and is always saving the one person he truly cares about is such crap. I feel like these type of people should be despised, not admired!

Does anybody else get bothered by this misrepresentation of sociopaths and narcissists in the media? Especially ones who are "heroes"?



Every character in Game of Thrones is a sociopath? you lost me there....who is the sociopathic hero in GoT? I mean a comment like that just seems to come from someone who hasn't actually watched the show, or followed the story line at all.

I can kind of see your point with that Dexter show from what I have heard, but I have never watched it myself so not sure how bad or good of a character he really is. If he really is a remorseless psychopath then I do agree they should not frame characters like that as heroes. But I am not sure how it really pertains to Game of Thrones, there are some terrible characters but they aren't the 'heroes' of the story per say.


Ok so they aren't "heroes" but there are a lot of bad people on that show, same goes for American Horror Story.



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13 Oct 2018, 5:07 pm

It's done because it appeals to the degenerate, sadistic, oral aspects of people's personalities which, owing to the fact that moral self restraint is condemned in contemporary society, plays a far more active part in people's lives than at previous times in history.

And of course, the neoliberal orthodoxy condemns any attempt to censor such garbage from the mainstream media as a violation of people's "rights".

Apparently, having teenagers spend their entire evenings shooting people on Call of Duty has no effect on the rates of violent crime in society.



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13 Oct 2018, 5:22 pm

I sometimes wonder if the glamorizing of crime and violence on TV and in video games hasn't contributed to the moral decay of society at least partly.

I can't remember the last time I saw a new TV show or movie that I felt wasn't trying to send me the message that it's fun to be a selfish dick who hurts people and kills human beings with no remourse.



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13 Oct 2018, 5:58 pm

I will say I did also enjoy the violence of The Punisher on Netflix though. Frank Castle in some ways makes me think of a Batman who did have that One Bad Day away moment. Before getting his own series, they did try to contrast him with a moral high ground character Daredevil.

I think Frank could be one of the more interesting anti-heroes as I think there is a good person still in there. He does still follow a code of conduct in a way even if it's much like a soldier on the streets. He went to war to kill for his country and now he's still killing on behalf of his country on the streets.



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13 Oct 2018, 6:20 pm

To be honest, this is probably the main reason I don't bother watching films or TV series released in the past ten years or so; banal, predictable, vulgar garbage.