Jordan Peterson - God is Dead (reading Nietzsche)

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Pepe
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21 Oct 2018, 6:48 pm


https://youtu.be/wFCWtqPEDAY

To be clear, I respect Jordan Peterson...
I simply have a problem with his focus/obsession on/with pragmatic life strategies which seem to incorporate aspects of delusion at the expense of hard core truth...
This is not in evidence *here* in my mind, but with the insight garnered from newer podcasts, one could see the beginnings of philosophical fantasy...

It seems to me to be a case of hierarchical priorities...
Namely: What is more important to the individual?
1. Finding/developing a pragmatic system of philosophies to help one cope with the situation in which one finds oneself?
2. Accepting the truth as it is, warts and all without the consideration of existential/ontological placation...

At this point I am convinced JP is in the first camp...
Whereas, I am in the latter...

Having said that, I liked JP's comments/observations on the "strength" of having some guiding principles, even if it is incomplete, to give some form of direction until further development...
I.E. Adopting an attitude of: "Work in progress"...

But once again, what is the context he/Nietzsche are using in the example here?
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to involve a philosophical principle which hasn't evolved/transcended to a higher level in terms of gaining enlightenment of the "big picture" and is simply catering to narcissistic self-preoccupation/navel gazing/self-importance...
Refer to the hierarchy above...

<work in progress>


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Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
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And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
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21 Oct 2018, 7:36 pm

I wish youtube would stop trying to force his farces into my suggestion box


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LoveNotHate
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21 Oct 2018, 8:36 pm

This is the most entertaining video on "God is dead" ...

Nietzche argues:
1. Religion, sin, right & wrong, good/evil are nonsense.
2. "Social Darwinism" is truth, because you can transcend "modern man", and become a "Superman".
3. So, belief in GOD and GOD's rules , makes you weak, by conflicting with what's best for you.
4. Those that realize this, are superior, "uberman", "superman", because they have "killed GOD", and are no longer being held back.


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Pepe
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21 Oct 2018, 11:35 pm

It may be entertaining...
But, from where I sit, it has little to no credibility, sorry...
Strike that...
Rather, it has *no* credibility...sorry... ;)

I haven't studied Nietzsche to any depth but I more than suspect his "superman" was not meant to be taken literally...
Nietzsche's superman was one of the intellect, not the physical...
I would go so far as to say it is axiomatic...

From what I can see, the presenter is misrepresenting the true context of what was said by Nietzsche...
And I must conclude this was a deliberate exercise of building a straw man...

Also, the ad hominen attack was further evidence of the fallacious presentation...

BTW, that was a very very unnatural moustache...<chuckle>


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


LoveNotHate
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22 Oct 2018, 3:52 am

Pepe wrote:
It may be entertaining...
But, from where I sit, it has little to no credibility, sorry...
Strike that...
Rather, it has *no* credibility...sorry... ;)

I haven't studied Nietzsche to any depth but I more than suspect his "superman" was not meant to be taken literally...
Nietzsche's superman was one of the intellect, not the physical...
I would go so far as to say it is axiomatic...

From what I can see, the presenter is misrepresenting the true context of what was said by Nietzsche...
And I must conclude this was a deliberate exercise of building a straw man...

Also, the ad hominen attack was further evidence of the fallacious presentation...

BTW, that was a very very unnatural moustache...<chuckle>

Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


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Pepe
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22 Oct 2018, 4:29 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


If the point of the video was to discredit the people who made it, then they have succeeded nicely...<chuckle>

I'm confused...what is your position here?
What was your intention when you posted it?


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


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22 Oct 2018, 5:03 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
This is the most entertaining video on "God is dead" ...

Nietzche argues:
1. Religion, sin, right & wrong, good/evil are nonsense.
2. "Social Darwinism" is truth, because you can transcend "modern man", and become a "Superman".
3. So, belief in GOD and GOD's rules , makes you weak, by conflicting with what's best for you.
4. Those that realize this, are superior, "uberman", "superman", because they have "killed GOD", and are no longer being held back.



Did he argue for Social Darwinism? Wasn't Nietzsche's argument that we should all be who we truly are, and be awake to life as it is? If everyone's supposed to do it, it's not really about hierarchy.

Regarding Peterson, I think his popularity has to do with him introducing a lot of old ideas to a new generation. These ideas are new to him, so they're in awe of him, but I don't see Peterson saying much that's really his.


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LoveNotHate
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22 Oct 2018, 5:32 am

Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


If the point of the video was to discredit the people who made it, then they have succeeded nicely...<chuckle>

I'm confused...what is your position here?
What was your intention when you posted it?

There's no one discredited.

This is philosophy, so it can mean whatever you think.

Like the NAZIs, took "Superman" (Übermensch) to mean precisely as described in the video.

"The term Übermensch was used frequently by Hitler and the Nazi regime to describe their idea of a biologically superior Aryan or Germanic master race"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch


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LoveNotHate
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22 Oct 2018, 5:58 am

HighLlama wrote:
Did he argue for Social Darwinism? Wasn't Nietzsche's argument that we should all be who we truly are, and be awake to life as it is? If everyone's supposed to do it, it's not really about hierarchy.

He seemed to believe that religious beliefs make you inferior.


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22 Oct 2018, 5:59 am

I find it amazing how the death of god is continously credited with enourmous bloodshed.
- not that rivalling ideologies in the 20th century haven't caused bloodshed, but rather: how is this new?
the first world war was very much happening under the old regime, but new technology made it into a bizarre, new form of war.
the second world war was driven by old ideology (fascism) vs. new(ish) ideologies (communism, liberal capitalism). but made worse by new technologies.

but it's not like the napoleonic wars, the french revolution, the opium wars, the taiping rebellion, the 30 year war, the hundred year war, the crusades etc. were peaceful affairs. most just happened before the advent of the machine gun, and all before poison gas, tanks, air raids, and nuclear bombs.

I don't understand how god plays any role in it. people butchered each other with or without god.
and one could argue that for the communists, "the people", as an abstract idea, was very much the same as a "god" - after all, all the killing happened in the name of "the people", while before it happened in the name of "god", or simply to acquire the enemy's wealth and/or territory - in the name of "the nation", if you will.

sartre summarized the position of one character in the brother's kharamazov as being "without god, everything is permitted";
but looking at history, most of what happened happened with god, or in the name of god, - or in the name of a substitute like the nation, or "the people".
zizek therefore turned it around: "if there is a god, everything is permitted" .... because only in the name of god (or a substitute), you can shift responsibility away from you and tell yourself that you're acting in the name of god, the nation, the people.


Peterson is introducing old ideaas to a new generation - and calls those, who found good reasons to criticize these ideas "resentful postmodernists". He just refuses to engage with criticism .... for practical purposes.
it's just so much easier to feel right, if you call all critics resentful.-


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Pepe
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22 Oct 2018, 7:21 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


If the point of the video was to discredit the people who made it, then they have succeeded nicely...<chuckle>

I'm confused...what is your position here?
What was your intention when you posted it?

There's no one discredited.

This is philosophy, so it can mean whatever you think.

Like the NAZIs, took "Superman" (Übermensch) to mean precisely as described in the video.

"The term Übermensch was used frequently by Hitler and the Nazi regime to describe their idea of a biologically superior Aryan or Germanic master race"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch


You are missing my point...
The pod cast you posted is misrepresenting what Nietzsche said...<sigh>


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


LoveNotHate
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22 Oct 2018, 10:21 am

Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


If the point of the video was to discredit the people who made it, then they have succeeded nicely...<chuckle>

I'm confused...what is your position here?
What was your intention when you posted it?

There's no one discredited.

This is philosophy, so it can mean whatever you think.

Like the NAZIs, took "Superman" (Übermensch) to mean precisely as described in the video.

"The term Übermensch was used frequently by Hitler and the Nazi regime to describe their idea of a biologically superior Aryan or Germanic master race"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch


You are missing my point...
The pod cast you posted is misrepresenting what Nietzsche said...<sigh>

Only according to your opinion.

Ask 10 college philosophy professors, and get 10 different interpretations.

That's what philosophy is about.

These people are presenting their opinions.


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Pepe
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22 Oct 2018, 6:15 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


If the point of the video was to discredit the people who made it, then they have succeeded nicely...<chuckle>

I'm confused...what is your position here?
What was your intention when you posted it?

There's no one discredited.

This is philosophy, so it can mean whatever you think.

Like the NAZIs, took "Superman" (Übermensch) to mean precisely as described in the video.

"The term Übermensch was used frequently by Hitler and the Nazi regime to describe their idea of a biologically superior Aryan or Germanic master race"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch


You are missing my point...
The pod cast you posted is misrepresenting what Nietzsche said...<sigh>

Only according to your opinion.

Ask 10 college philosophy professors, and get 10 different interpretations.

That's what philosophy is about.

These people are presenting their opinions.


The podcast mocked Nietzsche about how physically sickly he was and that he was hardly a "superman"...
Using my limited understanding of Nietzsche's philosophy, his "superman" was never about being: "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"...

This is clear evidence of a straw man argument, and as a consequence, a large amount of credibility is lost...
Couple this with ad hominen attacks about his mental state and you have a product which is a humorous but discredited concoction...

I'm surprised you are having difficulty seeing my point...
I am not defending Nietzsche here...
I am simply using critical thinking analysis to identify the facts...

It is plain to see you have an emotional investment in this youtube podcast...
I think it would be beneficial for you to find a better example to support your philosophy than this particular clip...
I am certain there are better people representing your position than those in the podcast you have provided...

I have no desperate need to defend Nietzsche, as I have mentioned before, since my position is that Truth needs no defence and it is irrelevant wherever it lands since it has no agenda in itself...
It is the people who have an emotional attachment to an fallacious intellectual concept which inhibits the dissemination of enlightenment...

I understand it is difficult to develop and maintain an objective mindset...
Our brain has different facets, some which have greater allegiance to emotional considerations and some aspects embrace the intellectual...
It is simply a matter or perseverance and getting back on the wagon if one falls off...<shrug>

You are making it hard for me not to sound patronising... :mrgreen:

Looking ...err..."forward" to your reply... 8O <chuckle>
Cheers mate... :wink:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Pepe
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22 Oct 2018, 6:58 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Pepe wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Yes, it's a religious video that paints him as evil.


If the point of the video was to discredit the people who made it, then they have succeeded nicely...<chuckle>

I'm confused...what is your position here?
What was your intention when you posted it?

There's no one discredited.

This is philosophy, so it can mean whatever you think.

Like the NAZIs, took "Superman" (Übermensch) to mean precisely as described in the video.

"The term Übermensch was used frequently by Hitler and the Nazi regime to describe their idea of a biologically superior Aryan or Germanic master race"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch


Using critical thinking:

-The context of my initial post was Jordan Peterson discussing aspects of Nietzsche's philosophies...
-My concern about Jordan Peterson's commentary was: "I simply have a problem with his focus/obsession on/with pragmatic life strategies which seem to incorporate aspects of delusion at the expense of hard core truth..."
- My entire focus was on Jordan Peterson while Nietzsche was essential irrelevant...
- It was you who introduced a podcast which changed the context away from Peterson to the discordance between religious teaching and Nietzsche's philosophies...

And here in this post, once again, you are engaging in a non-sequiturial tangent...

You said: "This is philosophy, so it can mean whatever you think."
You can if you wish to visit Bizzaroland... :mrgreen:

You can't simply reply to someone's post and ignore the context of that post without the loss of relevancy...
You can't simply accept/ignore falsehoods in a clearly fallacious argument...

Regarding: "Like the NAZIs, took "Superman" (Übermensch) to mean precisely as described in the video"
It is my belief/understanding that you have been seduced by fake news... :mrgreen:
It is my understanding that what Hitler said about Nietzsche and what Nietzsche actually said were far from identical...
<quote>
"The racist and fascist ideals of Nazism have long claimed to be based on and supported by the writings of the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. In actuality however, Nietzsche's ideas could not be more opposed to those of the Nazis. The blatant racism, oppression, and mass mentality of the National Socialists in no way fits with Nietzsche's writings or ideals. Knowing this, it is difficult to fathom how Adolf Hitler managed to warp Nietzsche's individualistic, anti-racist, and anti-German ideas to fit his own intolerant totalitarian agenda. Though Nietzsche's writings did influence Hitler, it was only through misinterpretation that Hitler came to believe that Nietzsche held pro-Nazi beliefs. In fact, it was only the sarcastic, complicated, and foggy nature of Nietzsche's writings, combined with the extensive "editing" of Nietzsche's sister that reinforced and "legitimized" Hitler's ideas. http://gadabyte.com/ww-ii/nietzsche.html"
<end quote>

My understanding is this is closer to the truth...
If anyone has supporting evidence/information contradicting the above quote, I would be more than happy to consider it, even though this is well beyond the context of the original post... ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


aghogday
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22 Oct 2018, 11:18 pm

Smiles; the Actual Nietzsche Philosophy on both 'the Overman' and the Phrase 'God is Dead' and 'We have
Killed God' is as Close as a Wiki Search Well Summarized there; And Yes, Fascinating it Verily Still is as
'The Overman' overcomes the Group Think of Religious thought in Fundamentalist Ways that says this
is not the 'Real' Reality of Living on Earth as 'The Real Thing' is actually Rarified Abstract Constructs
in Ideologies Spoon-Fed to us as soon as we can and will communicate with others ranging from
the God Version of Santa and The God Version of Jesus too; and sure if one is Buddhist perhaps
the Chubby Always Smiling Dude more as Idol than the Words of Teaching that in some ways
Are Abstract Constructs as all Written Words are in Form of what we try to Relate as our
Essence of Truth by God of Nature that is Ever Changing Based on whatever
We experience; and largely Pre-Constructed on the Fly before the Reasons
become apparent as we do our best to Dictate For Some Order of Reality
that otherwise might be Chaos as yes; it is true we basically
Hallucinate our Realities on the Fly Based on what
Our Experiences are Deep Down in the
Mostly Automated Process of
Sub-Conscious Mind as that relates
from Head to toe too as linked Below in the
Michael Shermer Skeptic Video at Time Mark
9 Minutes and 49 Seconds arrives at the Famous
"Stairway to Heaven" Song and provides an excellent
Presentation of Real Time Evidence of just how Tenuous
what we 'Think' in Reason Mind our Grip is Now in the Reality
Our Much Deeper Expansive Subconscious Mind Hallucinates on the Fly
as the Link Provides an Audio Hallucination Induced by Prepping the Mind
With Words and Listening to Back Masking that if your Mind is Functioning
Healthy you will not be able to control With so-called Reason now. This Applies
to Visual Illusions too that just like Auditory Hallucinations can and will go too far out
in the World of so-Called 'Madness' if out of the Spectrum of what We Mutually Consider
And Confirm as Reality but you See again as the Video Shows Below that Reality is Tenuous
in the Fact that
it is Largely
Determined
Sub-Consciously
By the Experiences of
Life that we are Fed First before the
Conscious Reality we 'think' we view now;
but even Scarier is for some Folks on the Schizophrenia
Spectrum and Autism Spectrum who Ironically have Brain Deficits
like Lesions on the Right Hemisphere that do not allow them to Properly
Hallucinate their Reality on the Fly Deep Deep Down in Automated Subconscious
Mind as that Basically Leaves them Lost Without An Automated Map of the World now
to get us more efficiently where we go next as we Hallucinate Reality well enough to get by
and for some folks who Master More of Regulating their Emotions and Integrating their Senses
through Practices like Still and Moving Meditation; they Become More Balanced in Mind and Body Way
That Does includes Senses and Feelings where they come through Bio-FeedBack to Generate their own
Happiness Within in Neurochemical and Neurohormonal Points of Light in Chemical/Hormonal/Neuron
Ways in Brave Waves too more Relaxed to Enjoy Life More in Survive And Even Thrive ways of Life now; the
Truth is More
Of How we Feel
And Sense the Reality
We basically Hallucinate
Deep Deep Down on the Fly
of Life that just might be a little up
too for those who come to Master where
Life all begins and ends in Feeling and Sensing
Life Now at Essence no matter what Words of Think
We Attach to it now to Better Navigate Life. And this 'Overman'
Story is not that Much Different than Fictional Accounts of the Old
Neo Story off of the Matrix; and Just about any other Hero Archetype
Coming Out Of the DArk to Bring Greater Wisdom of Knowledge and Beauty
of Feeling and Sensing Life to others in all the Ways Arts and Sciences continue
to arrive
in Balance
of smART And
heART iNheriting
The eARTh as Life is Good
Baby for i dam sure Can and Will
Prove it is at least for me in 'Fred Overman' Style
In 'Copious' Ways From Head to Toe From Moving
To Still Photos and Words too in Multiples of 10,000
Miles of Dance in Public and 6 Million Words of Longest
Epic Long Form Poetry in 5 Years too; as yes i prove at least what one 'Overman'
as Lover of all Life has to Offer as Real Heaven on Earth Within to Give and Share More.
Nietzsche didn't Make the Grade he Worked on as Philosophy and it is Questionable that
Whitman Did either as he predicted the Similar in his Words of Free Verse Poetry too for coming others as
i'm more into Doing than Predicting anything now but it seems some of my 'PreDictions' Do come true too.
The World of Human Creativity in 'Right Hemisphere Metaphor' of Do in Feel and Sense and Art too in Social
Empathic Ways of 'Artism' too is well beyond any semblance in Metaphor of Collecting Butterflies in Metaphor
of 'Left Brain Crystalized Knowledge'; as Fluid Intelligence is An Explorer of all Stuff Mystery in Mastery of
Bio-Feed
Back And
Regulation of
Emotions and Integration
of Senses Setting the Neo-Cortex
Freer From Servant and or Slave to 'Filling' And 'Feeling' up what is Emptier now;
As Fearless 'Filled' And 'Feeled' uP LoVE LiFE Beats What Ever Lives 'Below' in Fear;
In, Other 'Words'; True Success Of Fearless Love When Come to Real As HuMaN NoW;
Oh yeah; And Jordan Peterson Fills/Feels the Void of Many Young Aimless Males; Still Looking to
Be the Father They Still Cannot, Will Not See and Feel And Sense In Archetype of what it even means to Be Human.
The Problems of Hero Worship is the Truth often Escapes Outside of Building Ego in so-Called Fame and Fortune, Still..:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k


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23 Oct 2018, 4:47 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
Did he argue for Social Darwinism? Wasn't Nietzsche's argument that we should all be who we truly are, and be awake to life as it is? If everyone's supposed to do it, it's not really about hierarchy.

He seemed to believe that religious beliefs make you inferior.


Sure, but that's not necessarily Social Darwinism. Someone could think a utopia would exclude religion. I don't get the impression Nietzsche is saying that many people couldn't embrace his views, but that many people wouldn't. I think it's later readers (such as the Nazis) who saw what he said as justification of Social Darwinism; the same way that Social Darwinism seems, rarely, to have anything to do with Darwin. This video has more to do with responding to perceptions of Nietzsche than responding to his actual writing, much like people tend to respond to the reputations of Darwin or Freud without really reading them.


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