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Fnord
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19 Nov 2018, 11:40 am

Random thoughts from around the Internet...

One of the problems with Incels is that they tend to make assumptions about women — what women want in men and in relationships especially — that simply aren't true. In fact, many of these assumptions tend to come from other men, instead of women.

Even when told by women what those women want, Incels will deny the truth and point to the their own experiences as proof that no women wants any of those things -- what they don't seem to see is that women don't want those things from them and that they will seek those qualities out in other men.

I would suggest that Incels focus on finding out and accepting what women really want, and then building the best version of themselves to that reality. Finding ways to be their best selves will serve them much better and help them meet the right people.

The hard thing about changing their minds is that being an Incel the most essential part of their identities -- everything they have to say about women and relationships is predicated on the ideas that: (1) Incels are repressed and discriminated against for being sexless, (2) all women are vapid and only care about looks, (3) women owe men access to their bodies for sex, (4) women should submit to men in every way, physically, mentally, sexually, and socially.

Therein lies the irony of the Incel community. Incel websites feature countless posts objectifying and vilifying women, yet the same men writing those posts desperately want to have sex with the women they hate -- because they view women as both sex objects and antagonistic to their goal of sex.

Incels also tend to believe that:

• They are irredeemably ugly, and that this is why they cannot have sexual or romantic relationships.
• No amount of self-improvement, mentally or physically, will improve their prospects.
• Women only care about a man's appearance.
• Women as shallow, brainless beings who would never look beyond appearances.
• Feminism and women's sexual liberation produce a net negative because women are not choosing to have sex with them.
• Men should have access to women's bodies whenever without any objection from women.
• Woman do not have any worth unless they are sexually available to men

Incels refuse to see women as people with their own desires, and that perhaps their virginity and/or celibacy actually stems from their mistreatment of women and not their perceived physical unattractiveness. The largest contradiction of Incels is how they shame women for having lots of sex, but also expect women to have lots of sex with them.

If they admit that they're wrong -- that it's their attitude that's keeping them celibate -- then they have to accept responsibility for their choices and abandon a community they've chosen to be part of. And the Incel community does it's best to insist that changing themselves isn't just futile but simply wrong -- women should change for them, instead.

Many of these men refuse to embrace concepts like gender equality because their goal isn't really to become happy, but rather to control, monitor and punish women who either challenge male dominance or don't adhere to their concepts of women's "proper" role in a male-dominated society.

A lot of people think of misogyny as this sort of blind hatred of women, and it's not. It is an over-reaching sense of entitlement. It is rooted in the false belief that "women are put on Earth to serve men", and if they fail to do that to any single man's specifications, then he has every right to get angry with her -- like a belligerent customer who thinks that the waitress isn't giving him good service.

This is the sort of mentality that cannot be reasoned with or compromised on. For Incels who look in the world through this filter, the only option is for them to be told -- in emphatic, unequivocal terms -- that they are wrong.

Then ignore them.

They will eventually go away.



TW1ZTY
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19 Nov 2018, 11:50 am

I think that all women are different and each woman wants something different from men. Some women really are attracted to rich men, some are attracted to bad boys, some are attracted to men who are intelligent and charming, and some prefer a simple nice man who is sensitive and caring.

I also think men are the same way. Men are attracted to different types of women too some like a woman who is flashy and exciting and some prefer a woman who is more modest and nurturing.

And of course each gay or bisexual person has their own preferences too.

That's just how humans are. We each have individual tastes in other humans.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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19 Nov 2018, 12:00 pm

Quote:
One of the problems with Incels is that they tend to make assumptions about women — what women want in men and in relationships especially — that simply aren't true. In fact, many of these assumptions tend to come from other men, instead of women


Look who’s talking.



blazingstar
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19 Nov 2018, 12:41 pm

I agree with Fnord here. People who define themselves by perceived abuse/neglect are by definition wrong, because that puts their identity in the hands of others. This applies to more people than just incels. The only way one can improve one's life is to take responsibility and see what can be done. Blaming others is not a useful technique for making one's life better. I'm not sure telling people with this outlook on life they are wrong is helpful. I am not sure anything is helpful in these cases. It is a self-fulfilling life philosophy.


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Marknis
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19 Nov 2018, 1:37 pm

blazingstar wrote:
I agree with Fnord here. People who define themselves by perceived abuse/neglect are by definition wrong, because that puts their identity in the hands of others. This applies to more people than just incels. The only way one can improve one's life is to take responsibility and see what can be done. Blaming others is not a useful technique for making one's life better. I'm not sure telling people with this outlook on life they are wrong is helpful. I am not sure anything is helpful in these cases. It is a self-fulfilling life philosophy.


I don't think I am incel. I just suffer from a harsh past and I live in a rough culture that feeds the vicious cycle I am stuck in.



Fnord
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19 Nov 2018, 2:37 pm

blazingstar wrote:
I agree with Fnord here. People who define themselves by perceived abuse/neglect are by definition wrong, because that puts their identity in the hands of others.
Thank you. As long as people identify as "victims", they will be wrong. Victims are dead. Survivors are alive. Victims can't complain, and survivors have no reason to.
blazingstar wrote:
This applies to more people than just incels.
Agreed.
blazingstar wrote:
The only way one can improve one's life is to take responsibility and see what can be done.
Now, where have I read that before? :chin:
blazingstar wrote:
Blaming others is not a useful technique for making one's life better. I'm not sure telling people with this outlook on life they are wrong is helpful.
Telling them that they are wrong relieves you of any "Help Thy Neighbor" obligation, thus getting you off the hook for any further involvement.
blazingstar wrote:
I am not sure anything is helpful in these cases. It is a self-fulfilling life philosophy.
That's why, once you have told them how wrong they are, it's best just to walk away, ignore them, and to not respond to any provocation they may throw at you. Don't waste your time, your effort, or your breath on them. They're not worth it.



Last edited by Fnord on 19 Nov 2018, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cberg
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19 Nov 2018, 4:31 pm

Thanks for bumping all our real threads to the bottom with more armchair analysis of psychopaths.

/sarc. Please make it stop, we've seen enough about this


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Fnord
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19 Nov 2018, 4:34 pm

cberg wrote:
Thanks for bumping all our real threads to the bottom with more armchair analysis of psychopaths. Please make it stop, we've seen enough about this
Better Idea: Begin a thread of your own that everyone else will want to read and enjoy doing replying to!



blazingstar
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19 Nov 2018, 5:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
quote="blazingstar"] Blaming others is not a useful technique for making one's life better. I'm not sure telling people with this outlook on life they are wrong is helpful.
Telling them that they are wrong relieves you of any "Help Thy Neighbor" obligation, thus getting you off the hook for any further involvement.
blazingstar wrote:
I am not sure anything is helpful in these cases. It is a self-fulfilling life philosophy.
That's why, once you have told them how wrong they are, it's best just to walk away, ignore them, and to not respond to any provocation they may throw at you. Don't waste your time, your effort, or your breath on them. They're not worth it.[/quote]

I am still uncertain about your last assertions. I will have to give this more thought. I certainly agree there is nothing I can do about it and sometimes I have had to walk away.

Marknis, I don't think you are an incel and I don't think anything in this post was meant to apply to you.


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Fuzzyair
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19 Nov 2018, 5:21 pm

Fnord wrote:

• They are irredeemably ugly, and that this is why they cannot have sexual or romantic relationships.
• No amount of self-improvement, mentally or physically, will improve their prospects.
• Women only care about a man's appearance.
• Women as shallow, brainless beings who would never look beyond appearances.
• Feminism and women's sexual liberation produce a net negative because women are not choosing to have sex with them.
• Men should have access to women's bodies whenever without any objection from women.
• Woman do not have any worth unless they are sexually available to men


Nope that can't be true. I'm definitely not attractive and by some insane not of this world miracle I have ended up with a pretty woman and now we're expecting our first child - how did that happen right !?
I can't be good looking that's why I have all my pictures taken in front of a sunset so nobody has to see my ugly mug... :mrgreen:

My profile picture says it all !



Fnord
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19 Nov 2018, 5:59 pm

Fuzzyair wrote:
Nope that can't be true. I'm definitely not attractive and by some insane not of this world miracle I have ended up with a pretty woman and now we're expecting our first child - how did that happen right !?
I can't be good looking that's why I have all my pictures taken in front of a sunset so nobody has to see my ugly mug... My profile picture says it all !
Dude, judging from your silhouette, you have the looks of a Frankie Avalon!

(Before your time, I know.)

We could get into an uglier-than-thou contest, but suffice it to say that I make Gargamel look like an Adonis.



Fnord
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19 Nov 2018, 6:16 pm

blazingstar wrote:
... Marknis, I don't think you are an incel and I don't think anything in this post was meant to apply to you.
If this thread had been meant for any one person in particular, it would have been addressed to that one person.



Marknis
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19 Nov 2018, 6:38 pm

blazingstar wrote:

Marknis, I don't think you are an incel and I don't think anything in this post was meant to apply to you.


I've been judged as having a victim mentality so seeing the term victims used here made me feel like I was being linked to those people.



Fuzzyair
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20 Nov 2018, 1:53 am

Fnord wrote:
Fuzzyair wrote:
Nope that can't be true. I'm definitely not attractive and by some insane not of this world miracle I have ended up with a pretty woman and now we're expecting our first child - how did that happen right !?
I can't be good looking that's why I have all my pictures taken in front of a sunset so nobody has to see my ugly mug... My profile picture says it all !
Dude, judging from your silhouette, you have the looks of a Frankie Avalon!

(Before your time, I know.)

We could get into an uglier-than-thou contest, but suffice it to say that I make Gargamel look like an Adonis.


I just Googled him ! :D Thanks man, that's very kind of you to say ! !

Come on let's admit it, we all look fantastic ! We're just being modest :mrgreen:



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20 Nov 2018, 8:58 am

Fuzzyair wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Fuzzyair wrote:
Nope that can't be true. I'm definitely not attractive and by some insane not of this world miracle I have ended up with a pretty woman and now we're expecting our first child - how did that happen right!? I can't be good looking that's why I have all my pictures taken in front of a sunset so nobody has to see my ugly mug... My profile picture says it all !
Dude, judging from your silhouette, you have the looks of a Frankie Avalon! (Before your time, I know.) We could get into an uglier-than-thou contest, but suffice it to say that I make Gargamel look like an Adonis.
I just Googled him! Thanks man, that's very kind of you to say!! Come on let's admit it, we all look fantastic! We're just being modest.
Yeah ... sure ... I just pretend to be this ugly to keep people from hitting on me ... yeah ... that's the ticket ... ;)

We're both living that men can be physically unappealing and still attract women.