Page 1 of 4 [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Are You An Anarcho-Capitalist?
I'm an Anarcho Capitalist. 17%  17%  [ 2 ]
I'm considering Anarcho Capitalism. 17%  17%  [ 2 ]
No I'm not an Anarcho Capitalist. 67%  67%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 12

Dylanperr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2018
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,751
Location: The British Empire

21 Mar 2019, 8:35 pm

RushKing wrote:
Antrax wrote:
RushKing wrote:
No "an"cap here. Just one of the traditional anarchists who reject capitalism.


Logically I don't understand this. Anarchy is the lack of any government. If there is no government to prevent free exchange of goods and services, you by definition have a capitalist system...

My goal isn't to prevent free exchange of goods and services.

As an anarchist I oppose, all forms of unjustified hierarchy, authority and domination. I apply this position everywhere, including the workplace. Private ownership of land and our means of production is unjustified and authoritarian in nature.

Its not authorotarian consumers amd workers choose what company to buy and work for.



Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

21 Mar 2019, 8:42 pm

Dylanperr wrote:
Isn't Anarcho-Communism an oxymoron. Communism is authoritarian by nature.


Yes, but they've changed the definition of anarchy to fit communism: see above. It's fine as long as everyone knows what everyone else is talking about.


_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."


RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

21 Mar 2019, 9:34 pm

Antrax wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Isn't Anarcho-Communism an oxymoron. Communism is authoritarian by nature.


Yes, but they've changed the definition of anarchy to fit communism: see above. It's fine as long as everyone knows what everyone else is talking about.

It's the capitalists who are trying to change the definition. Proudhon, Kropotkin and Bakunin predate Rothbard by a whole century.



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

21 Mar 2019, 9:58 pm

Crimadella wrote:
Would this have a voting system?

Many different voting systems.



Crimadella
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,644
Location: Warner Robins, Ga

21 Mar 2019, 10:03 pm

RushKing wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
Would this have a voting system?

Many different voting systems.


How will it be organised, who will count the votes and how can you ensure that they are being honest?

Who will collect the votes? And how can you make sure they do not try to cheat, to sway the votes in the direction they choose?

Who will enforce the 'rules'. Will people be elected or will it be mob-rule?

How many people will be in the community? I ask this one because as size of community increases, so does the danger and practice of corruption.



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

21 Mar 2019, 10:05 pm

Dylanperr wrote:
Its not authorotarian consumers amd workers choose what company to buy and work for.

In anarchy not only can chose which commune or worker coop you want to work with, you'll also won't have a boss.



Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

21 Mar 2019, 10:30 pm

RushKing wrote:
Antrax wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Isn't Anarcho-Communism an oxymoron. Communism is authoritarian by nature.


Yes, but they've changed the definition of anarchy to fit communism: see above. It's fine as long as everyone knows what everyone else is talking about.

It's the capitalists who are trying to change the definition. Proudhon, Kropotkin and Bakunin predate Rothbard by a whole century.


I literally provided the dictionary definition of the word... It doesn't matter what you call it so long as everyone understands what you mean. You're currently confusing people by calling it anarchy when that is not in agreement with what anarchy is commonly understood to be describing.

Most people would call your system a form of collectivism/communism.


_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."


warrier120
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2016
Age: 20
Gender: Female
Posts: 633
Location: Southern California

21 Mar 2019, 10:32 pm

I'm not anarcho-capitalist, but I do lean left politically. I would probably stick with a moderate form of socialism such as evolutionary socialism. Communism is out of my range.


_________________
I am no longer using WP. Please PM me if you want to talk.


Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

21 Mar 2019, 11:52 pm

RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Its not authorotarian consumers amd workers choose what company to buy and work for.

In anarchy not only can chose which commune or worker coop you want to work with, you'll also won't have a boss.


If I'm a slacker and don't work very much do I get an equal share of the products of my commune?


_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."


Dylanperr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2018
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,751
Location: The British Empire

22 Mar 2019, 1:12 am

RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Its not authorotarian consumers amd workers choose what company to buy and work for.

In anarchy not only can chose which commune or worker coop you want to work with, you'll also won't have a boss.

What would an anarcho-communist society look like and what was an example Anarcho-Communist society from the past? I knew Ancient Ireland and civilizations before Mesopotamia were a perfect example of what Anarcho-Capitalism is.



Dylanperr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2018
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,751
Location: The British Empire

22 Mar 2019, 1:15 am

RushKing wrote:
Antrax wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Private ownership of land and our means of production is unjustified and authoritarian in nature.


Putting aside I strongly disagree with this statement. How does this system of yours work?

In my preferred system, anarcho-communism, the whole community manages land and production. In exchange for my labor, I gain direct access to goods and services the community provides. From each according to ability, to each according to need.

In anarcho-collectivism, community manages land and production. In exchange for my work I receive labor notes. These labor notes can be used at communal stores and are destroyed after transaction.

In mutualism land and production is allocated in accordance to occupation and use norms. I work for market exchange.

Antrax wrote:
Let's assume everyone gets along and doesn't do nefarious things like burning each others crops. It's planting season. I as a farmer get up early and go to the non-owned land. I pick out a stretch of land. I plant my crops there. Because I got up earlier than everyone else I have the largest amount of land planted. Come harvest time I have the most corn.

It's the next year before planting time. I still have a lot of corn leftover after the winter. There's a prime piece of land I want to plant on. I go to my fellow farmers, and I say. Let me plant on this land and I'll give you 10% of my corn. They agree, because they know I'm a good farmer and they can get more corn by taking the deal.

10 years pass, same deal has been made every year. Each year I have been producing more and more corn. I have used my excess corn to trade for a tractor. I go to my fellow farmers. I say "For 10 years you've all agreed to let me plant on this prime land if I gave you 10% of my corn. Now I have this tractor, that makes corn farming a lot easier. How about instead of me giving you corn every year, I give you this tractor and you let me plant on this land forever after." They agree because the tractor will greatly increase their corn production. I now own the land.

The only way to prevent this, is if you has some form of government that prevents me making these contracts with my fellow farmers.


In anarcho-communism (my preferred system) this attempt at empire would fail instantly. Because the community wouldn't be interested in market exchange!

In anarcho-collectivism you could possibly accumulate some labor vouchers, but no communal store would give you tractor as personal property.

In mutualism you would earn some cash, maybe a tractor (disclaimer: I'm not a mutualist and I don't know the the details in regards to mobile tools of production). Lets just assume, for the sake of argument you get the tractor.

Why would any of the mutualists accept your contract? They have options. It's not as if you have the only tractor on earth. Under their system, you would be entitled to the land as long as you are actively using it anyways. If you were abandon it for a long period of time, it would be up for grabs.

Isn't collectivist anarchism nothing more than an oxymoron because collectivism is putting a view on a group rather than one person.



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

23 Mar 2019, 9:58 am

Crimadella wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
Would this have a voting system?

Many different voting systems.


How will it be organised, who will count the votes and how can you ensure that they are being honest?

Who will collect the votes? And how can you make sure they do not try to cheat, to sway the votes in the direction they choose?

Who will enforce the 'rules'. Will people be elected or will it be mob-rule?

How many people will be in the community? I ask this one because as size of community increases, so does the danger and practice of corruption.

There isn't a single way to do consensus or direct democracy. But here is one example I can give you.

Image



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

23 Mar 2019, 10:13 am

Dylanperr wrote:
Isn't collectivist anarchism nothing more than an oxymoron because collectivism is putting a view on a group rather than one person.

Having one individual with all the decision making power, without justification is authoritarian. That's a dictatorship.



Crimadella
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,644
Location: Warner Robins, Ga

23 Mar 2019, 10:31 am

RushKing wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
Would this have a voting system?

Many different voting systems.


How will it be organised, who will count the votes and how can you ensure that they are being honest?

Who will collect the votes? And how can you make sure they do not try to cheat, to sway the votes in the direction they choose?

Who will enforce the 'rules'. Will people be elected or will it be mob-rule?

How many people will be in the community? I ask this one because as size of community increases, so does the danger and practice of corruption.

There isn't a single way to do consensus or direct democracy. But here is one example I can give you.

Image



What I'm trying to show you is that government is needed to prevent pure chaos. I'm not sure what you are trying to show here, people voting with hand signals? That doesn't seem reasonable if you have just thousands of people, much less millions. I'm trying to show you that to have a system where people vote for rules will need both, people elected to handle and count votes and elected or payed officials to enforce rules and a law system, judges and lawyers. Thus as you build you system of no government, any attempt to have rules will require you to build a government, a body to govern.

Now I have been thinking lately that the best system for humanity possible will be an equal wealth system, as in complete equal wealth, no one has more $$ than another. I feel that with an equal wealth system, true equality would exist, thus responsibility would be taught to kids, they would have the best education opportunities, the best communities, so i seriously doubt you would have millions of people raised right will feel the need to be lazy, sit back and do nothing, as that is the main reason used to suggest this kind of system wouldn't work. I think when children are raised with good communities, good parents, good education and the ability to follow their passion and help the community be strong, that is what they will wish to do. With automation approaching, we would have tech for those boring jobs. Also, for people who aren't sure what they want to do, we would be able to supply a list of areas in demand. I believe it could be kept fair in some kind of way of account transparency, like being able to confirm no one is receiving more money than another, or perhaps the system wouldn't really need money. Those are just my ideas though, because of the greedy nature of people, I don't think that kind of system will actually develop.



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

23 Mar 2019, 11:43 am

Crimadella wrote:

What I'm trying to show you is that government is needed to prevent pure chaos. I'm not sure what you are trying to show here, people voting with hand signals? That doesn't seem reasonable if you have just thousands of people, much less millions.

It's useful is for small scale decisions. For large scale decisions we have anarchist federations, which are boards of recallable delegates.



Crimadella
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2019
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,644
Location: Warner Robins, Ga

23 Mar 2019, 11:58 am

RushKing wrote:
Crimadella wrote:

What I'm trying to show you is that government is needed to prevent pure chaos. I'm not sure what you are trying to show here, people voting with hand signals? That doesn't seem reasonable if you have just thousands of people, much less millions.

It's useful is for small scale decisions. For large scale decisions we have anarchist federations, which are boards of recallable delegates.


A board of people is government officials. These board members would have to be elected or everyone could claim to be a board member, if that were not true nothing would be organized and it would be a system of chaos.



Last edited by Crimadella on 23 Mar 2019, 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.