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Antrax
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10 Jun 2019, 11:05 pm

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"--Erasmus


The basis of free market capitalism are:

1) Private ownership of goods and services

2) Freedom to exchange these goods

This simple combination is extremely effective, because it incentivizes persons to maximize the resources they own. If you are a farmer all you have is based on the food you produce. If you want something you have to trade what you produce for it. The more you produce the more things you can trade for.

Enter scarcity and competition. Scarce resources are the basis of economics and an unavoidable fact of living on this planet. For example there is only so much beach coastline. There are 7 billion persons on this planet. It is impossible for them all to live on the beach due to the scarcity of beach coastline. While all resources have some degree of scarcity to them, it is only necessary for a few resources to be limiting to set the principle of scarcity.

Scarcity breeds competition. If there is a limited amount of some resource, and more people who want it than can have it they must either forcibly take it from others or make competing bids for the same resource. In a civilized society the resource goes to the person willing to pay the most for it and not the person willing to kill everyone else for it (this is why governmental forces are a necessary evil in capitalist societies as otherwise it devolves into feudalism).

Competition is what makes the market so damn effective as allocating resources. If someone wants something and is willing to pay more than you are able you have to produce more in order to outbid them. If someone does what you do more efficiently and sells the same good/service for less you have to sell the same as them and become more efficient to earn the same as you used to.

It has long been thought that the bane of capitalist society is monopoly. But, in actuality the only way monopoly becomes entrenched is through government intervention. This is because at the heart of it the only monopoly that actually matters is investor money. A few companies have become dominant forces in their markets. They have taken overwhelming market shares. In an industry like telecommunications where there are 3 giants (Verizon, AT&T, T-mobile-Sprint) what prevents them from fixing prices? The threat of investor entry. The illusion is that there are only 3 companies that are competing with each other. The fact is that there is an invisible waiting to be formed 4th company by investors if there is an opportunity to compete in the market. A price-fixing scheme creating artificially high prices would be one such opportunity.

You'll notice I started this post with a quote from Erasmus "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." In society there will always be outliers. Persons who figure out the system and how to beat it. In most other systems this person breaks the system. Instead in free-market capitalism this person is the system. At the end of the 19th century transportation was achieving unprecedented levels of connectivity in human society. Two men Richard Warren Sears and Alvah Curtis Roebuck figured out that they could reach more customers if they sent out a catalogue in the mail and then fill orders that were mailed back to them all over the country. The mighty Sears-Roebuck was formed and for nearly 100 years was the #1 retailer in the country. The Sears company is now bankrupt as a new competitor that embraced a new technology out-competed them. That competitor an online book seller started in a garage by a one-eyed man in the land of the blind.


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auntblabby
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10 Jun 2019, 11:21 pm

pure capitalism only works if one is a pure capitalist [with natural entrepreneurial talents]. otherwise, one lacking such financially social talents is more likely to be exploited somehow by the smarter and stronger and luckier and faster. some people are "more at home" in a socialist or communist system, no matter what the capitalists think, especially those in the majority who were born on third base thinking they hit a triple [we all know who they are]. i think the northern european "third way" system, IOW "capitalism with a human face" [i.e. with a social safety net] is the optimum system relative to available human mental/spiritual bandwidth.



Antrax
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11 Jun 2019, 12:21 am

auntblabby wrote:
pure capitalism only works if one is a pure capitalist [with natural entrepreneurial talents]. otherwise, one lacking such financially social talents is more likely to be exploited somehow by the smarter and stronger and luckier and faster. some people are "more at home" in a socialist or communist system, no matter what the capitalists think, especially those in the majority who were born on third base thinking they hit a triple [we all know who they are]. i think the northern european "third way" system, IOW "capitalism with a human face" [i.e. with a social safety net] is the optimum system relative to available human mental/spiritual bandwidth.


A more efficient society benefits everyone whether they are 'naturally suited' to it or not. Many were starving in the Soviet Union and Mao China due to the inefficiencies of those regimes.

I have no issue with affordable safety nets and poverty alleviation. The problem is when the social programs overrun the economic productivity of a country as seen in Greece, the economy collapses under the crushing debt. Norway, Sweden et. al have a huge natural resources to population ratio that allows them to provide some hefty social benefits without outrunning their economies.

As for those born on third base thinking they hit a triple, they still need to play the game or they'll be passed. It is the rare few born so well off that they do not do anything in this life (and they serve a useful if unearned position of investing money such that they can live off the interest).

I will posit there are also those who were born on first base, see someone on third base and assume that person must have been born there when in fact they may have indeed hit a triple.


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shlaifu
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11 Jun 2019, 2:32 am

You're totally right about what an amazing thing a free market can be.

Please read a bit about what Marx wrote about capitalism, because you and he agree that it's the most dynamic, progressive force we have ever seen.
But he also saw what it did to the 99% who weren't born to capital owning parents.


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uspe
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11 Jun 2019, 3:02 am

Antrax wrote:
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"--Erasmus


The basis of free market capitalism are:

1) Private ownership of goods and services

2) Freedom to exchange these goods

This simple combination is extremely effective, because it incentivizes persons to maximize the resources they own. If you are a farmer all you have is based on the food you produce. If you want something you have to trade what you produce for it. The more you produce the more things you can trade for.

Enter scarcity and competition. Scarce resources are the basis of economics and an unavoidable fact of living on this planet. For example there is only so much beach coastline. There are 7 billion persons on this planet. It is impossible for them all to live on the beach due to the scarcity of beach coastline. While all resources have some degree of scarcity to them, it is only necessary for a few resources to be limiting to set the principle of scarcity.

Scarcity breeds competition. If there is a limited amount of some resource, and more people who want it than can have it they must either forcibly take it from others or make competing bids for the same resource. In a civilized society the resource goes to the person willing to pay the most for it and not the person willing to kill everyone else for it (this is why governmental forces are a necessary evil in capitalist societies as otherwise it devolves into feudalism).

Competition is what makes the market so damn effective as allocating resources. If someone wants something and is willing to pay more than you are able you have to produce more in order to outbid them. If someone does what you do more efficiently and sells the same good/service for less you have to sell the same as them and become more efficient to earn the same as you used to.

It has long been thought that the bane of capitalist society is monopoly. But, in actuality the only way monopoly becomes entrenched is through government intervention. This is because at the heart of it the only monopoly that actually matters is investor money. A few companies have become dominant forces in their markets. They have taken overwhelming market shares. In an industry like telecommunications where there are 3 giants (Verizon, AT&T, T-mobile-Sprint) what prevents them from fixing prices? The threat of investor entry. The illusion is that there are only 3 companies that are competing with each other. The fact is that there is an invisible waiting to be formed 4th company by investors if there is an opportunity to compete in the market. A price-fixing scheme creating artificially high prices would be one such opportunity.

You'll notice I started this post with a quote from Erasmus "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." In society there will always be outliers. Persons who figure out the system and how to beat it. In most other systems this person breaks the system. Instead in free-market capitalism this person is the system. At the end of the 19th century transportation was achieving unprecedented levels of connectivity in human society. Two men Richard Warren Sears and Alvah Curtis Roebuck figured out that they could reach more customers if they sent out a catalogue in the mail and then fill orders that were mailed back to them all over the country. The mighty Sears-Roebuck was formed and for nearly 100 years was the #1 retailer in the country. The Sears company is now bankrupt as a new competitor that embraced a new technology out-competed them. That competitor an online book seller started in a garage by a one-eyed man in the land of the blind.



neoliberalism - civilized barbarians .



uspe
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11 Jun 2019, 3:07 am

mr bezos would have become the isaac newton of our generation had he not poured all his endeavors into that algorithmic garage-sale thing .



shlaifu
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11 Jun 2019, 3:38 am

Antrax wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
pure capitalism only works if one is a pure capitalist [with natural entrepreneurial talents]. otherwise, one lacking such financially social talents is more likely to be exploited somehow by the smarter and stronger and luckier and faster. some people are "more at home" in a socialist or communist system, no matter what the capitalists think, especially those in the majority who were born on third base thinking they hit a triple [we all know who they are]. i think the northern european "third way" system, IOW "capitalism with a human face" [i.e. with a social safety net] is the optimum system relative to available human mental/spiritual bandwidth.


A more efficient society benefits everyone whether they are 'naturally suited' to it or not. Many were starving in the Soviet Union and Mao China due to the inefficiencies of those regimes.

I have no issue with affordable safety nets and poverty alleviation. The problem is when the social programs overrun the economic productivity of a country as seen in Greece, the economy collapses under the crushing debt. Norway, Sweden et. al have a huge natural resources to population ratio that allows them to provide some hefty social benefits without outrunning their economies.

As for those born on third base thinking they hit a triple, they still need to play the game or they'll be passed. It is the rare few born so well off that they do not do anything in this life (and they serve a useful if unearned position of investing money such that they can live off the interest).

I will posit there are also those who were born on first base, see someone on third base and assume that person must have been born there when in fact they may have indeed hit a triple.


That's not what ruined greece, btw.


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uspe
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11 Jun 2019, 4:48 am

we are putting businesswomen and businessmen onto the same pedestals with great women and great men why ? and reagan was just a film actor who didnt understand anything.



LoveNotHate
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11 Jun 2019, 6:16 am

auntblabby wrote:
pure capitalism only works if one is a pure capitalist [with natural entrepreneurial talents]. otherwise, one lacking such financially social talents is more likely to be exploited somehow by the smarter and stronger and luckier and faster. some people are "more at home" in a socialist or communist system, no matter what the capitalists think, especially those in the majority who were born on third base thinking they hit a triple [we all know who they are]. i think the northern european "third way" system, IOW "capitalism with a human face" [i.e. with a social safety net] is the optimum system relative to available human mental/spiritual bandwidth.

Your effort, talent, skills, capabilities are accessed and you're rewarded as such.

That seems pretty fair.

Your position seems to be that other people should have to work to provide you with stuff ...

That seems less fair.

Image
https://oliveremberton.com/app/uploads/ ... fair-2.png

Image


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Antrax
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11 Jun 2019, 12:43 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Antrax wrote:
I have no issue with affordable safety nets and poverty alleviation. The problem is when the social programs overrun the economic productivity of a country as seen in Greece, the economy collapses under the crushing debt. Norway, Sweden et. al have a huge natural resources to population ratio that allows them to provide some hefty social benefits without outrunning their economies.


That's not what ruined greece, btw.


Please entertain me with tales of what actually ruined Greece. Be as factual as you can be.


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Fnord
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11 Jun 2019, 12:48 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Dang! You beat me to it!

Some people earn their trophies through effort and perseverance,
while others want to be given a trophy solely for their attendance.


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shlaifu
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11 Jun 2019, 4:26 pm

Antrax wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Antrax wrote:
I have no issue with affordable safety nets and poverty alleviation. The problem is when the social programs overrun the economic productivity of a country as seen in Greece, the economy collapses under the crushing debt. Norway, Sweden et. al have a huge natural resources to population ratio that allows them to provide some hefty social benefits without outrunning their economies.


That's not what ruined greece, btw.


Please entertain me with tales of what actually ruined Greece. Be as factual as you can be.


let me google that for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Causes


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shlaifu
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11 Jun 2019, 4:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Dang! You beat me to it!

Some people earn their trophies through effort and perseverance,
while others want to be given a trophy solely for their attendance.


and some inherit them and some steal them and by far most are born in places where they never have the slightest chance to learn what game is being played.


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RushKing
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11 Jun 2019, 4:46 pm

Antrax wrote:
"

It's too bad free markets are only good on paper.

In reality, market competition plunders the earth of it's natural resources, shoves disabled people by the wayside, eliminates job security and work-life balance, prevents organizations from sharing ideas, erodes community life, elevates levels of stress, anxiety, depression and social isolation.



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11 Jun 2019, 4:47 pm

Antrax wrote:
The basics of free-market capitalism are:

1) Private ownership of goods and services

2) Freedom to exchange these goods
By contrast, the basics of Socialism are:

1) Government ownership of goods and services.

2) Regulated exchange of these goods.

Just sayin...


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