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Biscuitman
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19 Jul 2019, 7:48 am

BenderRodriguez wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
BenderRodriguez wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
can I also point out how insane it looks when Americans accuse the Democrats of being socialists?

Be that as it may, it's a very reliable source of entertainment :twisted:


I don't doubt that one bit :lol:

When people shout at Democrats for being 'socialists' I think they want others to go 'what?! that's terrible, boooo!' but instead they go 'wtf? have you even a clue what socialism actually is?'


Yep, I find that 9 times out of 10 someone uses the word (socialism) they have no clue what it means :lol: It seems to mostly stand for "something I don't like and everyone should agree it's evil".


I think it's generally young folk on the internet doing it. What's odd is that no one says it's bad to dislike something if you dislike it, but at least identify what it is you don't like about it rather than read a word on the internet about it and shout that this must be what they are. all the knowledge at their fingertips yet they can't be bothered to look up what the word is that they are shouting. :lol:



TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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19 Jul 2019, 7:52 am

I don't understand the meaning of "socialism". They use big words. :scratch:


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BenderRodriguez
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19 Jul 2019, 8:04 am

Biscuitman wrote:

I think it's generally young folk on the internet doing it. What's odd is that no one says it's bad to dislike something if you dislike it, but at least identify what it is you don't like about it rather than read a word on the internet about it and shout that this must be what they are. all the knowledge at their fingertips yet they can't be bothered to look up what the word is that they are shouting. :lol:


Pretty much, just like any form of discrimination is automatically called racism. I get it that people think racism is worse, but I'm a pedantic dick and think words actually have meaning :lol:


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kraftiekortie
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19 Jul 2019, 8:05 am

Anybody who espouses Marxist theory fully—and doesn’t just espouse incorporating some socialistic elements into an overall capitalist framework—can be said to be at least close to being a socialist.

Marxism is the predominant theoretical framework for socialists/communists around the world.

Ironically, most socialistic governments go against the grain of the full realization of Marxism by ruling in an authoritative manner while distancing themselves thoroughly from the “masses.”

After all, the full realization of Marxism is a “dictatorship of the proletariat [i.e. ‘the masses’].”



Antrax
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19 Jul 2019, 12:52 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
A "radical" would be somebody who advocates "radical" change----like overthrowing the government.

None of the Democratic candidates are "radical." Not even Trump is a "radical." He's not even especially "conservative." He's just espouses a sort of "business model," and he plays on the fears of the populace---of immigrants, especially.

The Democratic candidates have liberal-----maybe leaning towards a Social-Democratic model---ideas. They don't come even close to Socialism-Communism as practiced by Marxists around the world.


I'd argue that policies like the Green New Deal and Medicare for all are pretty radical given they represent the shifting of TRILLIONS of dollars.


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kraftiekortie
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19 Jul 2019, 2:39 pm

The Democrats will have to find some way to offset the cost, somehow, if all this actually occurs.

I doubt that "Medicare for all" will pass. There might be another "compromise"---hopefully much better than Obamacare.

I wish people would bask in the guarantee of a job and a living wage----but there are just some people who WILL take advantage of the system. This is inevitable. This sort of thing happened in the USSR---and the infrastructure there just about collapsed--one of the things that lead to its demise in 1991.

Rich people don't like to be taxed up the kazoo.....

It's "radical" solely because of the amount of money which probably would have to be expenditured if all this passes. These aren't really "radical" ideas when one takes an objective look at it.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 19 Jul 2019, 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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19 Jul 2019, 3:45 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
What happened was the right took the worst 1% of lefties and then presented them in media as typical examples, representative of the entire left.


absolutely agree. There seems to be a whole lot of finding 1 person doing something silly then reporting it as a generalised story in a 'look at the left!' way.

Sadly it seeps into the gullible part of society easily. Just look at some of the threads on WP for example.


It is unfortunate. I mean for instance I heard of some sort of concert where they wanted to charge white people twice as much as non-white people. Sure the people behind this may have been left wingers...it didn't happen because the venue said they wouldn't allow it and one of the bands scheduled said they wouldn't play if that was enforced.

Trouble is some people would paint that as something left wingers in general want. ITs like they'd point to that and say 'see the left wants racial inequality that favors black people' based on one or a few as*holes that planned such a ridiculous idea. I think most left wingers such as myself would say that is the wrong approach to race issues in this country.


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Sweetleaf
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19 Jul 2019, 3:48 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The Democrats will have to find some way to offset the cost, somehow, if all this actually occurs.

I doubt that "Medicare for all" will pass. There might be another "compromise"---hopefully much better than Obamacare.

I wish people would bask in the guarantee of a job and a living wage----but there are just some people who WILL take advantage of the system. This is inevitable. This sort of thing happened in the USSR---and the infrastructure there just about collapsed.

Rich people don't like to be taxed up the kazoo.....

It's "radical" solely because of the amount of money which probably would have to be expenditured if all this passes. These aren't really "radical" ideas when one takes an objective look at it.


IDK kind of seems like a lot of rich people think they are just too good to have to pay taxes like everyone else. In fact they think it is just find to even hog money and keep it out of circulation. I mean in what way does hiding their money in an offshore account where it cannot be taxed benefit this nation? They want to benefit from this country without paying their fair share.

Hell they don't even hide it, even heard of an add for some kind of 'how to get rich' seminar, that even advertised as 'learn to get rich off of other peoples money'....I mean what is that?


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Sweetleaf
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19 Jul 2019, 3:56 pm

Antrax wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
A "radical" would be somebody who advocates "radical" change----like overthrowing the government.

None of the Democratic candidates are "radical." Not even Trump is a "radical." He's not even especially "conservative." He's just espouses a sort of "business model," and he plays on the fears of the populace---of immigrants, especially.

The Democratic candidates have liberal-----maybe leaning towards a Social-Democratic model---ideas. They don't come even close to Socialism-Communism as practiced by Marxists around the world.


I'd argue that policies like the Green New Deal and Medicare for all are pretty radical given they represent the shifting of TRILLIONS of dollars.


That is not true of the Green New Deal, it's not a type of legislation that requires an upfront amount of money. It's just working towards policies and an economy that is not so reliant on the coal and oil that is polluting our planet. I mean Global Warming is an actual crisis, even the Navy is concerned about it.

Arctic and antarctic ice is melting, the water is already rising,even here in the United States. And overwhelmingly it is what we are doing to the planet...if the world does not take action soon no amount of $$$ is going to save us in the end. So surely countries can afford to put some funds into saving humanity from ourselves. Economy is kind of pointless if you don't have people.


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kraftiekortie
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19 Jul 2019, 3:59 pm

I'm not condoning what the rich do----let me emphasize that.

But we have to sort of get them on the bandwagon in some ways in order for all this to work.



madbutnotmad
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19 Jul 2019, 4:18 pm

To be honest, I think that political ideals these days are simply the collateral that the "Power Elite"
use to gain the general public's confidence in them which they use to seize control over their party and ultimately
the leadership of their associated country and gain control and influence over the lucrative public spending contracts, which are often worth multi-millions.

In my experience, when it comes to politicians and even ordinary people, people who practice what they preach or what they project as their ideals are very rare, few and far between.

I put Mahatma Ghandi, Jesus Christ, perhaps Moses etc. In this category of hard liner moral integrity-ists.

I have a fair amount of experience with politicians (including several famous ones) and in my experience,
they will use any thing they can in order to seize power and then the next day break all the promises that they gave the day before.

Where using the Machiavellian strategy of "where the ends justifies the means" may be considered acceptable among ruthless businessmen which includes many politicians, it is no wonder why so many people lose respect for such people in politics who use such policies, as how can you trust a persons words if they keep changing what they mean and breaking promises which they used to get voted in.

Personally i believe that in order to stop this ruthless practice, it should be made law that politicians are obligated by law to make good their promises which they get voted in with or face penalty, perhaps fines or even imprisonment.
As after all, broken promises are fraudulent in nature, defrauding the people who voted for them so to speak.

Also, if Politicians were forced to make good their promises then at least then we would be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

If it was up to me, i would make it law that the politicians only would get paid based on their performance. If they do not make good their promises, then they don't get paid. If they make good on all their promises, then they get paid in full (not the northern Irish interpretation of this phrase).

If they make all the people happy then they get a bonus!

Without this agreement, many political systems are just a complete fast. With power cliques abusing their power, authority due to position, and where innocent people suffer without cause. All very very bad.

And the people suffer!! ! Bad



kraftiekortie
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19 Jul 2019, 4:22 pm

All that is true.

But it is also true that (within a US context) Presidential candidates make promises, and are thwarted by Congress---even by those of the President's political party--in the implementation of these promises.



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19 Jul 2019, 4:28 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I'm not condoning what the rich do----let me emphasize that.

But we have to sort of get them on the bandwagon in some ways in order for all this to work.


You're right.

The only problem is how...I mean some of them really live in an alternate reality it seems. They truly think they are the 'betters' and everyone should pander to them.

I mean how does one get through to them?


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19 Jul 2019, 6:13 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
It is unfortunate. I mean for instance I heard of some sort of concert where they wanted to charge white people twice as much as non-white people. Sure the people behind this may have been left wingers...it didn't happen because the venue said they wouldn't allow it and one of the bands scheduled said they wouldn't play if that was enforced.

Trouble is some people would paint that as something left wingers in general want. ITs like they'd point to that and say 'see the left wants racial inequality that favors black people' based on one or a few as*holes that planned such a ridiculous idea. I think most left wingers such as myself would say that is the wrong approach to race issues in this country.



I agree that's the wrong approach. Why? Because wanting racial inequality favoring ANY race is.......racism pure and simple. Sadly there are people who actually believe that people on "the left" are not, or even can not be racist.

"White" people thinking their race is superior or even just hating other races (e.g. "black" people) are racists.

"Black" people thinking their race is superior or even just hating other races (e.g. "white" people) are racists.

Racism is racism is racism. I believe that NO ONE should get a pass on hating another race. I will never believe that "reverse racism" is OK just as I do not believe racism is OK.



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19 Jul 2019, 6:35 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
What happened was the right took the worst 1% of lefties and then presented them in media as typical examples, representative of the entire left.


I don't understand how "the right" can present anyone in media. The media is controlled by "the left". "The left" decides what is and is not shown in the media.

I do think that Trump's strategy is to portray "The Squad" as THE face of the Democratic Party. I think the media has eagerly done so. Pelosi? She's the Speaker of the House and she's taken a backseat to The Squad. The other democrats in the house? Who are they? It's all about The Squad. Do the majority of the democrats in the U.S. align with The Squad? I'm not asking if they should align with The Squad, I'm asking if they do.



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19 Jul 2019, 7:10 pm

The problem is you have a vocal minority of idiots taking center stage and being presented as the be all, end all of righteousness by celebrities looking to bolster their careers and media pundits. Meanwhile people like me and other saner minds gawk in disbelief as these morons who should have been forced to take a basic civics test before trying to get elected make fools of themselves and go so far as to accuse members of their own party of racism and act like they own the place.


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