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USA: Would the Framers have said "love it or leave it"?

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beneficii
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20 Jul 2019, 1:28 pm

I don't think they would have. After all, if you read the 1st Amendment, particularly the bolded portion below:

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So if you have grievances and there are things that don't seem quite right, it seems that your right to try to have these redressed is specifically protected by the 1st Amendment. Of course, people have the right to say "Love it or leave it", but the attitude I think is unconstitutional. The attitude is about just having things your way and never wanting or letting anybody ever change it.


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20 Jul 2019, 6:05 pm

beneficii wrote:
I don't think they would have. After all, if you read the 1st Amendment, particularly the bolded portion below:

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So if you have grievances and there are things that don't seem quite right, it seems that your right to try to have these redressed is specifically protected by the 1st Amendment. Of course, people have the right to say "Love it or leave it", but the attitude I think is unconstitutional. The attitude is about just having things your way and never wanting or letting anybody ever change it.


They did not love Great Britain so they left it.

They were different people so it is quite possible they would have had different opinions on the matter.


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kraftiekortie
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20 Jul 2019, 6:45 pm

There were varying views of Great Britain from amongst the Framers.

Basically, those who became the Federalists were relatively pro-Britain.

Those who were the Democrat-Republicans were relatively pro-France.



beneficii
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21 Jul 2019, 3:56 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I don't think they would have. After all, if you read the 1st Amendment, particularly the bolded portion below:

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So if you have grievances and there are things that don't seem quite right, it seems that your right to try to have these redressed is specifically protected by the 1st Amendment. Of course, people have the right to say "Love it or leave it", but the attitude I think is unconstitutional. The attitude is about just having things your way and never wanting or letting anybody ever change it.


They did not love Great Britain so they left it.

They were different people so it is quite possible they would have had different opinions on the matter.


The Framers, I believe, were mostly born in British North America. They stayed right where they were and threw off their British rulers.


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ASPartOfMe
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21 Jul 2019, 4:07 am

beneficii wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I don't think they would have. After all, if you read the 1st Amendment, particularly the bolded portion below:

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So if you have grievances and there are things that don't seem quite right, it seems that your right to try to have these redressed is specifically protected by the 1st Amendment. Of course, people have the right to say "Love it or leave it", but the attitude I think is unconstitutional. The attitude is about just having things your way and never wanting or letting anybody ever change it.


They did not love Great Britain so they left it.

They were different people so it is quite possible they would have had different opinions on the matter.


The Framers, I believe, were mostly born in British North America. They stayed right where they were and threw off their British rulers.

Fair enough.


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LoveNotHate
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21 Jul 2019, 5:45 am

I've heard conservatives commenters revel in the nostalgia of pre-welfare days, when immigrants were expected to "pull their own weight" or "go back home".

It seems common today ...
Image


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Redxk
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21 Jul 2019, 6:44 pm

The difficulty is that different people have different ideas about what it is to love one's country. I think the real question is whether the framers would have taken a tough-love stance or said, "My country, right or wrong."



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21 Jul 2019, 8:14 pm

I think what annoys me most about this country is when Americans brag being a country of 'freedom'. Freedom for who exactly? I don't feel like I live in a free country if I'm not allowed to have the same rights as heterosexuals and I'm told by Republican Christians to shut up about it because of the bible. :roll:


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21 Jul 2019, 9:14 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
I've heard conservatives commenters revel in the nostalgia of pre-welfare days, when immigrants were expected to "pull their own weight" or "go back home".

It seems common today ...
Image


How about we stop spending trillions of dollars on illegal wars in foreign countries? Then we'd have money to spend not only for our veterans, but helping impoverished communities in the U.S. and repairing our crumbling infrastructure. What do you say about that? The money spent on illegal aliens is a mere drop in the bucket compared to that.


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TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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21 Jul 2019, 9:18 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I've heard conservatives commenters revel in the nostalgia of pre-welfare days, when immigrants were expected to "pull their own weight" or "go back home".

It seems common today ...
Image


How about we stop spending trillions of dollars on illegal wars in foreign countries? Then we'd have money to spend not only for our veterans, but helping impoverished communities in the U.S. and repairing our crumbling infrastructure. What do you say about that? The money spent on illegal aliens is a mere drop in the bucket compared to that.


I'm with you. These wars are BS.


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Trueno
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22 Jul 2019, 1:41 am

VegetableMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I've heard conservatives commenters revel in the nostalgia of pre-welfare days, when immigrants were expected to "pull their own weight" or "go back home".

It seems common today ...
Image


How about we stop spending trillions of dollars on illegal wars in foreign countries? Then we'd have money to spend not only for our veterans, but helping impoverished communities in the U.S. and repairing our crumbling infrastructure. What do you say about that? The money spent on illegal aliens is a mere drop in the bucket compared to that.


That idea is far too sensible.


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22 Jul 2019, 4:44 am

Unfortunately, I think we see too much noble idealism in the founders. Remember, it was Benjamin Franklin arguably the most sensible of the founders, who expressed uncharacteristic bigotry against Palatine German immigrants, claiming they were a threat to American free government for not being born in free societies (even though he complains about their involvement in politics and their participation in voting at the same time), and even complained that they weren't white enough.


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beneficii
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22 Jul 2019, 5:36 am

VegetableMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I've heard conservatives commenters revel in the nostalgia of pre-welfare days, when immigrants were expected to "pull their own weight" or "go back home".

It seems common today ...
Image


How about we stop spending trillions of dollars on illegal wars in foreign countries? Then we'd have money to spend not only for our veterans, but helping impoverished communities in the U.S. and repairing our crumbling infrastructure. What do you say about that? The money spent on illegal aliens is a mere drop in the bucket compared to that.


The first thing you should have done was to question the $900 billion per year number that LoveNotHate gave.


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beneficii
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22 Jul 2019, 5:48 am

LoveNotHate,

You are spreading misinformation. I do not know whether or not it is intentional. If it's not, then you need to do a better job checking your sources. If it is intentional, then you need to take a good long hard look in the mirror and realize you do not really embody your username.

https://www.apnews.com/5b48049e5f18405e8000ef754e03cfd8


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VegetableMan
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22 Jul 2019, 9:42 am

beneficii wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I've heard conservatives commenters revel in the nostalgia of pre-welfare days, when immigrants were expected to "pull their own weight" or "go back home".

It seems common today ...
Image


How about we stop spending trillions of dollars on illegal wars in foreign countries? Then we'd have money to spend not only for our veterans, but helping impoverished communities in the U.S. and repairing our crumbling infrastructure. What do you say about that? The money spent on illegal aliens is a mere drop in the bucket compared to that.


The first thing you should have done was to question the $900 billion per year number that LoveNotHate gave.


It wasn't really relevant to the point I was making.


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LoveNotHate
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22 Jul 2019, 1:49 pm

beneficii wrote:
LoveNotHate,

You are spreading misinformation. I do not know whether or not it is intentional. If it's not, then you need to do a better job checking your sources. If it is intentional, then you need to take a good long hard look in the mirror and realize you do not really embody your username.

https://www.apnews.com/5b48049e5f18405e8000ef754e03cfd8

As my post indicated, I am showing what conservatives say.

As you point out, President TRUMP is saying illegal immigrants "cost" 250B per year.

So, 2.5 TRILLION dollars over 10 years (so, the 900B number could actually be an understatement for conservatives).

See how numbers/statistics can be easily manipulated?

I didn't mean to make you upset. :(


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