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thinkinginpictures
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02 Sep 2019, 6:22 am

I have a question for Christians:

Why would an eternally benevolent God allow the horrifying execution in the electric chair and other unjust punishment of innocents?

Why don't God intervene?

If God truly exists, he surely is not my God. I will never obey the creator-god. I'd rather side with Satan or a rebel-deity.



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 02 Sep 2019, 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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02 Sep 2019, 6:26 am

God wants us to fight it out amongst ourselves.

Sort of like a “tough love” attitude.

That’s how I would interpret it from a compendium of atheistic and Christian perspectives.



thinkinginpictures
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02 Sep 2019, 6:28 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
God wants us to fight it out amongst ourselves.


Then God is evil, as God caused man to be evil and made humans do evil stuff to innocents.



thinkinginpictures
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02 Sep 2019, 6:50 am

All Christians MUST remember that it was the will of God that the Hurricane Dorian will cause a lot of deaths and destruction.

Just saying...

Maybe you should stop worshipping that psychopath?



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 02 Sep 2019, 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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02 Sep 2019, 6:56 am

God is what we make of Him/Her/Whoever/Whatever.

Hurricanes are created by Nature. They know not what they are doing...



thinkinginpictures
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02 Sep 2019, 7:24 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
God is what we make of Him/Her/Whoever/Whatever.

Hurricanes are created by Nature. They know not what they are doing...


I was merely attacking the Christian beliefs in an eternally omnipotent and benevolent deity.
To them, everything good and everything bad is attributed to the Will of God.

Then I simply point out that if it is so, it is the will of God that their innocent loved ones must die of cancer.
That innocent people will be executed and die in pain.
That the so-called Intelligent Designer (God) also designed virus and bad bacteria not only cold virus and flu virus, but also Ebola and various genetic disorders.

The Christian God is also directly responsible for the Global Warming, all world wars (and all wars), every conflict.

The Christian God is the sole cause of all bad things that has happened and will happen.

The Christian God (including of course the Jewish and Islamic God, all the same evil psychopath deity) is a psychopath. He is not a righteous god. He is not even worthy the title "God". Even Satan, the Devil - is a better choice for us and will make our life better than the current deity.



techstepgenr8tion
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02 Sep 2019, 12:44 pm

I'm not a Christian but as far as I see the question relevant in ways that can be traced out in accounts of human experience:

We're in something much colder and much more impersonal than the Abrahamic faiths would let on. It's pretty clear what we are (evolved apes), we're still dominated by our evolutionary drives and it's getting obvious that evolution only caring about environmental fitness rather than morals, virtues, or truth means that a lot of the worst and most maladaptive traits from a humanistic viewpoint don't just convey evolutionary advantage on the person who has those traits but those traits become contageous and traces of them start spreading to anyone who's affected by such people.

The thing that seems to come up on repeat with people's NDE's - seeing in 360 degrees, going from wherever they were at to some energetic core of either the universe or 'their' universe. I think the term 'God' fails here because what you have might better fit Andrei Tarkovsky's Solaris, ie. an utterly inhuman intelligence spawning off geometries based on its own internal pressures unfolding. It might be tempting to play with the idea that the fundamental fields of physics might themselves be what gives rise to consciousness but this still puts us in a very wedged/uncomfortable spot from the standpoint that for the most part it's as if we're on our own in the usual atheist-materialist way, just that we have the added joy of knowing that our consciousness may be recycled forever and if one might have had such a bad life they'd welcome nonexistence they may find that such isn't available, ie. that their consciousness will get cycled and recycled.

On the questions of evil, what humans are, human limitations, I've enjoyed reading John Gray's work a lot and I've noticed recently that there's a cognitive psychologist - Donald Hoffman - whose tethered something of a line between John Gray's sort of Darwinian pessimism and Alfred North Whitehead's metaphysics, what's come to be known as 'process philosophy' and in a way it seems like Andrei Tarkovsky was inspired by Whitehead or some derivative philosophy to try and imagine a conscious super-being which rather than being any sort of warm of personal deity was much more like an unconditioned force of nature.

That may be a bit more sheer than things are, ie. I get the sense that there could be some padding, but I think that padding comes from other sources rather than whatever we might think of as the 'conscious generator of images'.


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Roboto
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02 Sep 2019, 1:49 pm

I would imagine the point here is that "there is no God" and if so, I agree with you.
Although your focus on the Christian God specifically may mean you have a different point...
But either way. There aren't supernatural beings.



timf
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03 Sep 2019, 10:29 am

I was merely attacking the Christian beliefs in an eternally omnipotent and benevolent deity.

I can understand and frequently encounter this perspective. As an attack, your proposition (that if a God existed, he would be evil) is less an invitation to discuss and reflect on the logic of such a proposition than a display to contemptuous disdain.

For those who would have an interest in the subject, consider if one were to be an all powerful God and wished to create people. Would you create them to be robots who would only be programmed to do good. Or would you give them free will and deal with the consequences of their selfish and evil choices.

If a batch of created beings (with free will) were exterminated every time they made evil choices, one might imagine an endless process of creation and destruction. One might consider that an all powerful God would anticipate this and include in his creation some method for redemption or reclamation rather than instant extermination.



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03 Sep 2019, 11:44 am

Or maybe humans evolved the same way dogs, plants and literally every single other thing on the planet evolved.
Some are good, some are bad. You're on your own.
It would be nice to have the God placebo in my DNA, but not happening for me.



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Sep 2019, 7:54 pm

timf wrote:
For those who would have an interest in the subject, consider if one were to be an all powerful God and wished to create people. Would you create them to be robots who would only be programmed to do good. Or would you give them free will and deal with the consequences of their selfish and evil choices.

I think the proof that almost no one is interested is apparent in most of these threads. They tend to reliably flow down the binary puritan bible literalist vs. materialist atheist gutter. Even if you're going to go the reductive materialist 'it's all anthropological relics' it's a really pedestrian direction to take it.


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thinkinginpictures
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04 Sep 2019, 2:23 pm

timf wrote:
I was merely attacking the Christian beliefs in an eternally omnipotent and benevolent deity.

I can understand and frequently encounter this perspective. As an attack, your proposition (that if a God existed, he would be evil) is less an invitation to discuss and reflect on the logic of such a proposition than a display to contemptuous disdain.

For those who would have an interest in the subject, consider if one were to be an all powerful God and wished to create people. Would you create them to be robots who would only be programmed to do good. Or would you give them free will and deal with the consequences of their selfish and evil choices.

If a batch of created beings (with free will) were exterminated every time they made evil choices, one might imagine an endless process of creation and destruction. One might consider that an all powerful God would anticipate this and include in his creation some method for redemption or reclamation rather than instant extermination.


This is a very, very poor argument. What about evil stuff that does not involve human decisions?
What about genetic disorders? What about cancer? What about catastrophes? The list goes on and on when you consider this "benevolent" deity whom Christians, Jews and Muslims worship.



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05 Sep 2019, 11:03 am

"Life Is Always A Living And
Dying Tree; Leaves That
Green And Fertilize
Make Life Fair..."

-me

Any Questions, 'Wrong
Planet' about an Eternally
Benevolent God; A Snake
That Obviously Consumes itS own 'Tale' (Rhetorical Question)
On the NeWesT Rendition of the 'Lion King', 'James Earl Jones'
Paraphrased the Wisdom Above by me in Advance, hehe; when
'He' Said as i paraphrase 'Him' Now; the Lion Lays With Leaves Of Grass
When The Lion Dies; the Lion Becomes Leaves of Grass for the Antelope
as The Antelope Becomes Leaves of Grass; the Antelope Eats As Became
the Lion
Before
the Lion
Becomes
the Grass And
the Antelope Again...
It's a Matter of perspective;
but it's better when we consume each
other with Least Harm and the Rest of Nature
in a Delicate Balance of the Spiral of Life Golden;
And In Focus of all of Our Attention in Flow; yes, the Present of Now.

Let's Put it this way, if We can and will imagine it at least; When We Animals Live Naked And Close to Nature;
Particularly, Us Human Animals as We Live Hand-in-Hand Giving And Sharing; Yes, Foraging Together Hand-in
Hand in a Real Dance and Song of Survival and Thriving; where we give and share more with each other and the
rest of Nature; than taking and hoarding in Greed of storing Grain in Silo's; and Fresh other Hell of the Agricultural,
Industrial, and Information Ages to take a Quick Step Forward and Backwards Away from Altruistically Moving,
Connecting, And Co-Creating; What We Will Actually Feel and Sense in 'Flesh and Blood Life'; We Miss out
on the Simple Reality that there is no separation; Dark and Light for all of What is Positive and
Negative about Nature; We are all one Force of MaKinG our Way in the Present Moment
of Now of what Life is all about; Doing our Best to Survive with a Bit of Intermittent
Gratification; like when we eat together in Peace and Harmony and Even Dance and
Sing hand-in-hand in a Thrive of Joy Together under a Moon-lit Campfire Night
That Lasts Eternally Now in Flow of Trance of Now; the Gift; the GreaTest Gift
Our Breaths
each and
every one
that Brings us life Eternally Now.

It's true, when We Experience
Life This way; there is no Doubt
that We All Exist Naked as the Breath
of God that is Us and All one Force of Existence Now.

Second Part of Comment Below;
Cloud Flare Acting Up again.


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aghogday
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05 Sep 2019, 11:04 am

Part Two from Comment
Above; Cloudflare was
Not able to Digest it in one bite..;)

Then someone ate the Metaphor of the Tools of the Apple that we have come to be so far away from
Nature; so far away for who We all are still as God with much fewer Cultural Clothes that Separate Our
Camel From that Needle; the Camel of Within Set Free to Dance And Sing without Restraint, Naked and Free.

"It would be nice to have the God placebo in my DNA, but not happening for me." This one statement out of this
thread inspired me to come back to say a few words, in my Language of Nature and God the Same.

The "Placebo Effect"; not unlike the "Nocebo Effect" that Proves in Scientific Terms that the Force; the
Power of Human Belief, amongst those who Develop That Human Ability; Born and Bred for it, are BOTH
REAL; Yes, Along with the "VooDoo", Nocebo Effect, Where Negative Versus Positive Beliefs Will Make Us
Ill instead of Well as Long as those Who Can and Will Take Advantage of the Dark and Light of Human Belief
Actually Use their Imaginations to Visualize Negative or Positive Beliefs For Real Life Life Effects; Both Dark and Light
For
Real
Life Effects.

The Big Picture View of Nature and God Larger in Life is more of a 'Right Brain Metaphor' View of Life For more of
an innate, instinctual, and Intuitive Success in Life. Generally Speaking, Folks who Do not Use these Potentials in
life; or those who have born on weaknesses in these Human Potentials; may not be able to visualize any
Imaginary Beliefs; in fact, they may have Non-Verbal Learning Functional Disabilities that makes
Visualizing Thinking in Pictures like this almost impossible; Additionally, they may have
Problems interpreting Metaphors as of course that takes Visualizing Thinking too
in imagination of Course that is Integral to Human Creativity too.

Like i said 'little ones', too; as a Metaphor from the Lion King
Movie; life is not fair except for the fact that still under 'normal'
Circumstances we all Green and then Fertilize the Earth With Whatever Leaves
We Grow of a Living Tree of Life. i choose Human Potential; i refuse Labels that refuse my Human Potential.

i make results that are both amazing and empirically Measurable; for i will never ever be limited by any Human
Written Word alone; True, the 'SonG oF mY SoUL', a Longest Epic Long Form Poem 'Bible', i wrote in 72 Months at
7.2 Million Words, and 11,877 Miles of Public Dance; and Leg Pressing 1520 Pounds, 8 reps at age 59
is only the Beginning of What i will do next. No Different Really than back at Age 53 on this Website
when i clearly Stated there is no limit of what i will do next when i leg Pressed 500 Pounds then
And hadn't even Starting completing the rest of those Personal achievements Just for Flow of now, then.


And this is only a tiniest
part of what anyone, including
me will ever Measure Empirically of
my ever Evolving Multi-Coloring Soul;
Both Conscious; Subconscious; and
Collectively Subconscious; as DNA continues To Dance And Sing Epigenetically Truer
if challenged Enough by the Environment Positively to more fully come out
And Play Nature Naked And Freer Conscious Mindfully and Body
Full Aware Now even more in Human Potentials now still to Be.

The Size God We See is the Wind We come to Be and See;
Call it a Blue Turtle or an Orange Turd; What is Real is Essence Over Form.


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05 Sep 2019, 11:34 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I'm not a Christian but as far as I see the question relevant in ways that can be traced out in accounts of human experience:

We're in something much colder and much more impersonal than the Abrahamic faiths would let on. It's pretty clear what we are (evolved apes), we're still dominated by our evolutionary drives and it's getting obvious that evolution only caring about environmental fitness rather than morals, virtues, or truth means that a lot of the worst and most maladaptive traits from a humanistic viewpoint don't just convey evolutionary advantage on the person who has those traits but those traits become contageous and traces of them start spreading to anyone who's affected by such people.

The thing that seems to come up on repeat with people's NDE's - seeing in 360 degrees, going from wherever they were at to some energetic core of either the universe or 'their' universe. I think the term 'God' fails here because what you have might better fit Andrei Tarkovsky's Solaris, ie. an utterly inhuman intelligence spawning off geometries based on its own internal pressures unfolding. It might be tempting to play with the idea that the fundamental fields of physics might themselves be what gives rise to consciousness but this still puts us in a very wedged/uncomfortable spot from the standpoint that for the most part it's as if we're on our own in the usual atheist-materialist way, just that we have the added joy of knowing that our consciousness may be recycled forever and if one might have had such a bad life they'd welcome nonexistence they may find that such isn't available, ie. that their consciousness will get cycled and recycled.

On the questions of evil, what humans are, human limitations, I've enjoyed reading John Gray's work a lot and I've noticed recently that there's a cognitive psychologist - Donald Hoffman - whose tethered something of a line between John Gray's sort of Darwinian pessimism and Alfred North Whitehead's metaphysics, what's come to be known as 'process philosophy' and in a way it seems like Andrei Tarkovsky was inspired by Whitehead or some derivative philosophy to try and imagine a conscious super-being which rather than being any sort of warm of personal deity was much more like an unconditioned force of nature.

That may be a bit more sheer than things are, ie. I get the sense that there could be some padding, but I think that padding comes from other sources rather than whatever we might think of as the 'conscious generator of images'.


I'm interested, but do not have the level of understanding or depth that you do. But I get your question. I see the same thing in the right vs left political threads. Just yelling and no one thinking and actually discussing.

I am not be smart enough to learn what you do. What would be the best book to start with? As in being readable.


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as modified by David Tamulovich