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Karamazov
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29 Jan 2020, 4:19 am

auntblabby wrote:
magz wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Yes but it's not polite to call factory workers lower-class so we pretend that they're middle class.

8O
I guess I need to learn a lot more about traditionally capitalist societies today. By the way, wasn't the term "working class" coined exactly for this purpose?

DELINEATION OF SOCIO-ECONOMIC CLASS
*underclass= people under the socio-economic radar, IOW folk who are homeless/living with friends, living in some kind of shelter for people down on their luck, in DSHS-subsidized housing, on welfare or disability pension or with sporadic unskilled employment- generally struggling on the margins, with pervasive poverty of income as well as in ready access to cultural amenities.

*working class= lower middle class- semi-skilled worker bees in general- tradesman, janitors, mechanics, repairmen, sanitation workers, enlisted military members, aides of various stripes [home health/nursing/teachers' aides], LPNs, assembly-line workers, phone bank workers, sub-GS-06 civil servants, most salespeople- you get the picture. usually below 6-figure income. some of these folk have college degrees but they are not profiting from having them. most are "getting by" and some are fairly comfortable [with quasi-middle-class lifestyles such as the house and 2 cars], albeit with many dual-income families.

*the middle-middle class= working class folk [some with college degrees applicable to their field of work] who did exceptionally well [like successful commissioned salespeople], bachelors-level teachers and professors, social workers, RNs, supervisors of various stripes, semi-professionals such as specialist hospital technicians and journeyman tradesmen, military officers, post-GS-06 civil servants, small business people [mom and pop operation, for example], most professional musicians, and the like. the luckier/exceptionally talented among these folk may have incomes somewhat above $100k.

*upper-middle-class= professional class- people with professional/advanced university degrees/fellowships- doctors, lawyers, engineers of various stripes, especially those with a few decades in [with their student loans all paid off], administrators of various stripes, established [large-firm] business people, mid-level government officials, masters/doctoral-level educators. mostly 6-figure income.

*upper-class/overclass [leisure class]= show business/entertainment, artists with wealthy patrons, trust fund swells, rich families [old money], people who hit the jackpot in general [new money], government and corporate bigwigs - know what i mean? mostly well-educated, with university degrees the social rule rather than the exception. usually 6-figure [and above] income.

a cultural look- in the area of food, the middle class judges food by flavor and variety. the working class measures success in not having delicious food, but just having enough to not be hungry. the upper class cares mainly about how well the food is prepared and presented. the working class will consider itself lucky if it can eat fast food now and then. the middle class considers itself fortunate if they can eat at their fave high-class restaurants. the upper class may have favorite restaurants in multiple countries.
in terms of residence, for the working class it is more often than not transient. middle class has the condo and the house in the 'burbs. upper class has the estate, and vacation houses in multiple countries.


Talking about class in English can be rather confusing: mainly due to the fact that the past two centuries of modern capitalism have been dominated by two successive world powers that both use the language by default, but use it in rather different ways: for example in Britain we use the term ‘working class’ to refer to many people who in the US would be referred to as ‘middle class’.
And at least in Britain we don’t always agree on the precise definition of the terms with each other in any case.
I don’t know about the US, but in Britain ‘working class’ is a coveted identity many people are proud to designate themselves and their families with.
We also have titled aristocracy: some, but not all, of whom have inherited income bearing property such that they have no need to work in any way to support themselves (although it should be noted that most of them do work regardless)
We tend to think of them as a class apart from all the other folk who have similar wealth, but had to work to get it.



Rainbow_Belle
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29 Jan 2020, 5:18 am

I am underclass, 10+ years on welfare, long term unemployed college graduate with worthless degree with Aspergers. I blame it on my worthless degree and the bad luck of having Aspergers. No Aspergers and no college degree is far more employable.



auntblabby
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29 Jan 2020, 5:42 am

Karamazov wrote:
in Britain we use the term ‘working class’ to refer to many people who in the US would be referred to as ‘middle class’. I don’t know about the US, but in Britain ‘working class’ is a coveted identity many people are proud to designate themselves and their families with.

if you don't mind, what do you over there call what USA calls "working class" [IOW below our middle class]?



Karamazov
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29 Jan 2020, 5:47 am

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
I am underclass, 10+ years on welfare, long term unemployed college graduate with worthless degree with Aspergers. I blame it on my worthless degree and the bad luck of having Aspergers. No Aspergers and no college degree is far more employable.


Aye, a degree isn’t in itself a guaranteed ticket to a mid-to-high status job for any human: and ASD in all it’s forms can render even a good degree worthless in practice.
Have you considered self-employment?
It’s not easy, but I have managed to get together some little income and sense of dignity and self-respect ignoring my degree in architecture and working as a gardener instead.
If you have skills/abilities that can be sold directly to customers bypassing the employment interview process I’d reccomend giving it serious consideration.
Also: since I’m my case each introductory meeting with a customer is only for an hour or two a fortnight or month there’s less riding on the outcome of the individual meeting. I find that the anxiety is easier to manage in that set-up than the all-or-nothing situation of a formal job interview.



Karamazov
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29 Jan 2020, 5:58 am

auntblabby wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
in Britain we use the term ‘working class’ to refer to many people who in the US would be referred to as ‘middle class’. I don’t know about the US, but in Britain ‘working class’ is a coveted identity many people are proud to designate themselves and their families with.

if you don't mind, what do you over there call what USA calls "working class" [IOW below our middle class]?


Mostly the same to be honest: although we tend to use working class to mean manual labour exclusively, regardless of skill and income level... and middle class to mean anyone that has a university degree, again regardless of skill and income level of their actual job.

So a skilled master joiner and cabinet maker on £40,000plus net income per annum who employs several labourers under him, owns his own home and can afford foreign holidays will be referred to as working class.

And a teachers assistant with a 2.2 degree in fine art who struggles to pay rent, food and bills out of £16,000 gross income per annum will be referred to as middle class.

And no, I don’t think it makes any sense either.

There is an semi-official system used by marketers and some journalists here: but it uses letters A,B,C1,C2,D,E. And it doesn’t really match up all that well either (for instance it leaves out the homeless, career criminals and the aristocracy)



magz
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29 Jan 2020, 5:59 am

auntblabby wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
in Britain we use the term ‘working class’ to refer to many people who in the US would be referred to as ‘middle class’. I don’t know about the US, but in Britain ‘working class’ is a coveted identity many people are proud to designate themselves and their families with.

if you don't mind, what do you over there call what USA calls "working class" [IOW below our middle class]?

But in your long delineation "working class" was defined as "lower middle", not "below middle" :scratch:


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29 Jan 2020, 6:06 am

Karamazov wrote:
So a skilled master joiner and cabinet maker on £40,000plus net income per annum who employs several labourers under him, owns his own home and can afford foreign holidays will be referred to as working class.

so your equivalent might be called laborer class. here, the mcjobbers [working fast food or home health care aides] would be the top part of the underclass unless they had more than one job or were married to another with similar employment. then they'd be working class.



auntblabby
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29 Jan 2020, 6:08 am

magz wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
in Britain we use the term ‘working class’ to refer to many people who in the US would be referred to as ‘middle class’. I don’t know about the US, but in Britain ‘working class’ is a coveted identity many people are proud to designate themselves and their families with.

if you don't mind, what do you over there call what USA calls "working class" [IOW below our middle class]?

But in your long delineation "working class" was defined as "lower middle", not "below middle" :scratch:

that is because everybody here fancies themselves "middle class," even many upper class people call themselves "middle class" if only to keep the peace. many working class people are at the tippy-top of being underclass and are just one paycheck/eviction away from being flat-busted.



magz
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29 Jan 2020, 6:14 am

auntblabby wrote:
magz wrote:
But in your long delineation "working class" was defined as "lower middle", not "below middle" :scratch:

that is because everybody here fancies themselves "middle class," even many upper class people call themselves "middle class" if only to keep the peace. many working class people are at the tippy-top of being underclass and are just one paycheck/eviction away from being flat-busted.

Which makes "middle class" an umbrella term encompassing like 95% of the society ;)


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auntblabby
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29 Jan 2020, 6:18 am

magz wrote:
Which makes "middle class" an umbrella term encompassing like 95% of the society ;)

unfortunately, in practice that is correct. but it bugs me. here, middle class is more a state of mind than anything else, unless one is flat busted. even then, john steinbeck said [paraphrasing from alexis de tocqueville] that the typical non-monied amuuurican sees him/herself as just "a temporarily embarrassed millionaire."



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29 Jan 2020, 6:20 am

In my own head I prefer an eight classes on four levels model:
•overall shape a diamond divided into eight triangles (because every class has its own internal hierarchy)
• Top level: Established status: one triangle: the hereditary rich.
•Second level: Middle status:
Three triangles: 1, business and media executives, top tier managers and the like. 2, financial and banking executives, top tier managers and the like.
3, state executives, top tier managers and the like (politicians here if they aren’t otherwise heavily tied to the aforementioned)
• Third level: Worker status:
Three triangles: 1, all self employed manual labourers. 2, all employed manual and semi-manual labourers. 3, all Salaried professionals below executive status, most academics and scientists and religious ministers here too (unless they’ve already been counted into higher levels for other reasons)
• Fourth level: Underclass, everyone who is generally looked down on, pitied/reviled: unemployed, homeless, refugees, slaves in black market production and any criminal operating at a petty level outside of an organised syndicate.

Although that’s probably as flawed as any other attempt to wrest sense from the situation :lol:



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29 Jan 2020, 6:23 am

auntblabby wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
So a skilled master joiner and cabinet maker on £40,000plus net income per annum who employs several labourers under him, owns his own home and can afford foreign holidays will be referred to as working class.

so your equivalent might be called laborer class. here, the mcjobbers [working fast food or home health care aides] would be the top part of the underclass unless they had more than one job or were married to another with similar employment. then they'd be working class.

"Laborer class". Yes, I like it.
In the "second world" a doctor did not earn more than a factory worker. There was no "middle class". There was laborer class, farmer class, educated class, grey zone (a lot of illegal and semi-legal activities that could make people accumulate considerable wealth) and the establishment.
Quite a lot of motion between them.


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Karamazov
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29 Jan 2020, 6:25 am

magz wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
magz wrote:
But in your long delineation "working class" was defined as "lower middle", not "below middle" :scratch:

that is because everybody here fancies themselves "middle class," even many upper class people call themselves "middle class" if only to keep the peace. many working class people are at the tippy-top of being underclass and are just one paycheck/eviction away from being flat-busted.

Which makes "middle class" an umbrella term encompassing like 95% of the society ;)


And in Britain almost everyone does their best to define themselves as working class, and to refer to a person, attitude or custom as ‘middle class’ can be a term of abuse.



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29 Jan 2020, 6:33 am

Karamazov wrote:
And in Britain almost everyone does their best to define themselves as working class, and to refer to a person, attitude or custom as ‘middle class’ can be a term of abuse.

Abuse?


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Karamazov
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29 Jan 2020, 6:43 am

auntblabby wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
So a skilled master joiner and cabinet maker on £40,000plus net income per annum who employs several labourers under him, owns his own home and can afford foreign holidays will be referred to as working class.

so your equivalent might be called laborer class. here, the mcjobbers [working fast food or home health care aides] would be the top part of the underclass unless they had more than one job or were married to another with similar employment. then they'd be working class.


This one gets into political divisions in the UK around the function and use of our welfare state: broadly on the Left and Centre of politics thes people would be referred to as working class, however if they are supplementing their income with in-work benefits to make ends meet there are many in the political right who would use terms such as ‘shirkers’, ‘scroungers’ etc. and place them at underclass status: I must stress however that that opinion is far from universal on the British political right, although it is popular with the editorial boards of right wing newspaper (basically almost all the newspapers)



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29 Jan 2020, 6:47 am

People don’t want to feel like others find them effete, soft, naive, not on the cutting edge.

There is a sense that there is a sort of a “glorification” of the working class in the U.K. and the US. That they are hip, and have the requisite amount of accumulated struggles for the attainment of some sort of “street cred” (credibility).