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Mountain Goat
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18 Jan 2020, 11:02 pm

Can you see demons, angels, ghosts, UFO's etc?

Some people can. Some can't.

Soomeone mentioned that those who see them meed to see a psyciatrist, but shouldn't it be the other way round? Could it be those who don't see such things be at fault and have a dissability compared from those who can?

Of course, it all depends what is going on with the individual on a mental, spiritual and physical level.

But my point is, just because a person can see into the spiritual realm, it does not mean that there is something wrong with them. Quite the contrary. Could there be something wrong with those who don't?


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IsabellaLinton
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18 Jan 2020, 11:08 pm

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/ ... nd_Sensing

This is a really interesting book on the topic of autism and our heightened perceptual sensitivity.



MjrMajorMajor
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18 Jan 2020, 11:18 pm

No. I hesitate to mention them, but I have had a few instances more on the spiritual side that haven't yielded to some outside rational explanation.



Mountain Goat
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18 Jan 2020, 11:20 pm

Thanks Isabella. :)


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Mountain Goat
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18 Jan 2020, 11:23 pm

MjrMajorMajor wrote:
No. I hesitate to mention them, but I have had a few instances more on the spiritual side that haven't yielded to some outside rational explanation.

Ah. I've had lots of them and they can be explained in spiritual ways but can't be explained by applying physical logic if that makes sense.


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pyrrhicwren
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18 Jan 2020, 11:31 pm

I've had dreams of very specific things before they happened in real life. Not always. One dream had a part 2 and part 3 about 7 years apart. Weird.



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18 Jan 2020, 11:39 pm

To the degree that I'd think I have its terrifying.

Although he's an atheist and quite a profound existentialist and pessimist, just not necessarily a reductive materialist, I think John Gray's Soul of the Marionette actually strikes a lot of my observations.

I like his comparison of whatever Atman, Source, or the Dharmakaya might be to Stanislav Lem's Solaris - ie. something that's just unpacking and unfolding what it is through it's own internal urgencies and we're likely not going to see any rhyme or reason that could even serve our highest or most noble purposes - it's just evolution happening almost in the way that most evolutionary biologists might think of it. I actually like the term 'Source' for it a lot better than 'God' because 'God' seems to imply that this has some sort of responsibility to us individually - what we have clearly doesn't. What we have will pretty much let anything happen to you and then come dust you off when you die because it has to reassimilate you without taking the toxins on board that come from lives of relentless suffering and hopelessness.

From that it seems like Daoism, and I'd agree with John Gray on this point, is likely the closest thing to a natural religion that fits the situation. The bitter pill with that one - it's perfectly free and perfectly amoral, ie. that whatever nature does is the way because it's what nature is doing and to stand in the way of nature is simply to create eddies, whirlpools, and mounts of misdirected force that bring our structures to ruin. That and obviously to take that to full seriousness would be to abandon technology, give ourselves over to the rhythms of nature including drought, famine, disease, parasites, tribal warfare, all the good things we left behind!

I can see why modernity ran as far as it could away from that as fast as it could, just that it's in a bit of a crisis. If we do run so far into reductive materialism that we treat human life as only having worth on a success basis or on even worse contingencies like social conformity, outward assembly of mannerisms and looks, whether or not you carry yourself as prestigious or confident, we start creating something probably worse than nature - ie. a positive and literal dystopia where we'd need a good sized asteroid for pain relief almost more than the rest of nature.

IMHO we can't point at a stack of virtues and run at it like it's the north star because we'll just create another imperial religion or jingoistic set of policies that functions as a religion in the Durkheimian sense without any of the humility of realizing that it's a religion. At the same time to give in to the flow of nature is to give up in a much different way and as far as I can see of human nature, just the slightest bump of human motivation would just mean that whoever went to some peaceful gathering style way of living would be met yet again with Spaniards with galleons, swords, machine guns, and off they'd go in shackles to the mines. So modernity as we have it is something we're stuck with, but we do have to figure out how we'd tame it's worst attributes.

Really spiritual struggle, moral struggle, political struggle, economic struggle, class struggle, it's all intertwined but I think the mistake we need to clear out is that the enemy is much less some other adversary tribe or group of people - its set and setting itself. We were horribly oppressed by nature and the hardship of life conditions on this planet for almost all of human history and to a large degree we still are, just that what the conveniences we have craft an illusion that everything should be perfect or that we should be beyond all of that - that's not the case, and you see it the ways people continue to treat each other, the movie The Joker really took a hard glance at that. We did free ourselves from the elements of weather and starvation or thirst but we still have the same internal environment oppressing us and that seems to be redundant at a genetic level, it's programmed through every level of what it is to be biological life. No clue what we'll do to fix that.


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funeralxempire
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19 Jan 2020, 1:00 am

I can't claim to.

For what it's worth, seeing things or hearing voices isn't inherently a symptom of mental illness, it only would be it causes distress to the individual. If I suddenly had my dead ancestors speaking to me, I'd lose my s**t. For someone in a culture where hearing voices is more widely accepted, they'd be far less likely to be distressed by that scenario.

People who don't share these experiences are placed in an awkward position when these experienced are discussed. On the one hand it's rude to dismiss and invalidate these claims, but on the other hand since they can't be objectively proven and sound implausible and far-fetched it's unfair to insist they be taken at face value. I mean, I've got a faery imprisoned in my closet, but I can't expect everyone to believe me about it. It sounds kinda crazy. :nerdy:



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19 Jan 2020, 1:19 am

funeralxempire wrote:
People who don't share these experiences are placed in an awkward position when these experienced are discussed. On the one hand it's rude to dismiss and invalidate these claims, but on the other hand since they can't be objectively proven and sound implausible and far-fetched it's unfair to insist they be taken at face value. I mean, I've got a faery imprisoned in my closet, but I can't expect everyone to believe me about it. It sounds kinda crazy. :nerdy:

To me that sounds like it's happening because it's an attempt to interact with the conversation at an extreme where there's no possibility of a bridge or discussing any middle ground of reality. I mentioned to Twilight Princess earlier - if you have zero reason to believe that consciousness goes beyond neurons then this kind of conversation, by definition, has to be either some form of Darwinian madness or subconscious parts of the brain covering up what's unpalatable about actual existence in the way that people like Sheldon Solomon and the Terror Management theory thinkers would suggest.

Where I'd fully agree with you - most people go for the campy stuff immediately, take things literally immediately or go for self-indulgence (I think Christianity is ripe for that because when you think about it - it's an incredibly sexy worldview that tells you that ancient beings far older and more powerful than yourself are having an epic battle for your soul!), and that tends to confirm suspicions that all of this is simply a form of fantasy, self-flattery, and escapism. I'd add - to go to a place like Become A Living God (E.A. Koetting's board), while they're nice people and all it can be f'ing boring because nearly every topic people start is how to get a succubus or shag a demon and to try and have any sort of substantive discussion about life, the composition of human psychology, how to deal with fundamental principles to stay sane when life puts you in profound duress, you would think real occultism worth it's salt would be interested in durable life-hacks first and foremost (the only exception being the peak leading authors who I have noticed are a bit like that) and yet you really don't find it much of anywhere else. Then again that seems to be human norms, try to talk about anything substantive on anything but sports, business, golf, barbecue grills, or guns and you've pretty much self-exiled.


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19 Jan 2020, 1:26 am

I do not, but recent experiences and a certain discussion have certainly piqued my interest in the subject, so I might lurk this discussion. If nothing else, I did believe a child who said he could see demons, even if I never have. Even though that was a few years ago, recent events have brought that back to the forefront of my thoughts. I will say though, I might believe more in outside forces than I thought.

I had best make sure that God and only God is the outside being that I connect with on a spiritual level. Well, him or my guardian angel, if I'm to believe that old Catholic prayer. I did talk to someone at church once who said her children were able to see their guardian angel when they were younger, and her daughter may have been saved by "Sally"(something about dragging her daughter out of the way of an oncoming car), but they lost the ability to see them when they got older. All this demon talk makes me also want to renew any belief I had that guardian angels are a thing. Heck, maybe that's the real reason I narrowly avoided having to drive through the worst of a terrible snowstorm this Thursday morning. I'm clearly not one who needs to see to believe.



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19 Jan 2020, 5:50 am

I cannot claim to have found them, but they have come looking for me on occasion.


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19 Jan 2020, 8:40 am

I don’t believe that any of that stuff is real.

I think that many things can cause those sorts of experiences (sleep deprivation, sleep disorders, medical issues like epilepsy, mental illness, heightened suggestibility due to one’s culture, etc.), but I highly doubt that ghosts, demons, angels, or alien UFOs actually exist.

I’ve had some strange experiences, but they were hallucinations which, when treated with appropriate medication and getting enough rest, went away.

That would be an interesting area of research - to see how often demons, angels, and UFOs respond to medication and other recommendations made by psychologists by going away...

Interestingly, schizophrenic hallucinations are often of supposedly spiritual things like demons and angels. Medication frequently helps. If they were real experiences and not just hallucinations, one wouldn’t expect medication to help at all.

Since the existence of this stuff hasn’t been proven, I wouldn’t consider seeing any of it a gift. It’s much more likely to be a sign of a problem.

Normalcy is not a disability.



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19 Jan 2020, 9:02 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I can't claim to.

For what it's worth, seeing things or hearing voices isn't inherently a symptom of mental illness, it only would be it causes distress to the individual. If I suddenly had my dead ancestors speaking to me, I'd lose my s**t. For someone in a culture where hearing voices is more widely accepted, they'd be far less likely to be distressed by that scenario.

People who don't share these experiences are placed in an awkward position when these experienced are discussed. On the one hand it's rude to dismiss and invalidate these claims, but on the other hand since they can't be objectively proven and sound implausible and far-fetched it's unfair to insist they be taken at face value. I mean, I've got a faery imprisoned in my closet, but I can't expect everyone to believe me about it. It sounds kinda crazy. :nerdy:


The police should come and rescue the faery. :P



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19 Jan 2020, 10:26 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnumx-LN-EQ

SMiLes as far as i can and will 'see' and 'do' the Human Potential to Create Original
Art out of Imagination that is Effort Without Force; Art Without Reason; Flow with no Reason;
And Without Knowing is most definitely a Spiritual Realm that is Real for me in Autotelic Flow
That is Simply
Heavenly Bliss;
that i for one practice
in Moving Meditation Dance and
Song of Words coming 'Wu Wei' Now
As Action Without Forcing; as all of Life
Becomes Water, Waves, and Ocean Same;
in other Words, Yin of Big Picture and Yang
of Small Details; Roots and Leaves Become one
As We Fertilize Existence with Additional Colors of
Loving All there is about existence more; Yes, DarK Thru LiGHT.
Science Proves this Spiritual Realm Exists; and in Fact Meditation both
Still and Moving Meditation is a Real Fountain of Youth that Regenerates Gray Matter
in the Brain; Reduces Stress that is Fear; Generates Greater Empathy and Compassion for
all that is; and considering in 77 Months of practicing a Meditation of Free Verse Song in Poetry
with 7.7 Million Words of that; and 12,584 Miles of Public Dancing in Moving Meditation along with that since
the Age of 53; and 66 Months Prior to July, 19th, 2013, Living with a Synergy of 19 Life Threatening Disorders
as a shut-in in my Bedroom; including Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia; the worst assessed Pain Known to Humankind
from wake to sleep; that now yes, my Leg Strength pushing 60 Years-Old this June is three times Greater than when i was
22, Running 10K Races then; as yes,1520 Pounds now is Three times more than 500 Pounds then; i just got over 2 Weeks
of the Flu; and my Strength still hasn't gone anywhere but the same and more; Yes, by all Empirical Measure i found the
Real Fountain of Youth; Eastern Philosophies have understood this for Thousands of Years; and Science is now Just catching up as in a State of Flow with Just Small Amounts of Intermittent Meditation; Science assesses Creativity
400 to 500 Percent, in increases above 'the control' of 'just the norm'.

The thing is; This Experience is Cross Cultural; Terms include Prana; Satori; Tao; Qi; Wu Wei; Ka, Ki, Chi, Kundalini
Rising as sure Yoga is slow and Moving Meditation too; every Hold; every Pose is a symphony of Muscle Fibers
Moving to attain and keep that pose; But in General the Bottom Line is Autotelic Flow as far as Science
Related Terms apply; as Transient Hypo-Frontality is the Organic Scientific Description of what happens
when we move out of the restriction of Neo-Cortical Control and Light the Rest of our Brain and Subconscious
Mind up through Body Whole bringing Greater Human Potential to the Center Focus of our 'Light' as Human beings;
as yes, Cognitive Executive Functioning not only becomes a Laser Focused Highly Tuned Ferrari Human Being for
Reason; but Yes Big Picture Art Being too; what comes next are the results that are in deed empirically measurable
and real.

The Sum of Art and Reason is the Spirit of all We Can And Will be as more;

A Real Christmas Tree Human Being that continues to Light More Colors as We Flow.

It is more than Seeing into the Spiritual Realm; It is Being and Doing the Spiritual Realm too.

As Far as Bad Ghosts and Demons and Scary UFO Stuff; that's not something i care to create;
there is enough of that in Politics/Religion; more than enough to fill my plate that is as real as real gets;
for it is true; there is Negative Flow; Negative Synchronicity; And the Nocebo Effect too; as some folks
Live
in the
Dark Side
too; lately
it's been colored 'Orange';
the Roots and the Leaves are in Deed Minion in Affect and Effect.

Other than that; have a nice day; i continue to 'iFly', Just 'cause i can and will.

In deed, i am Naturally Super Logical and Reasonable; but in deed when Magic comes and Proves it's real;
i am still Naturally
Super
Logical
And Reasonable
When Magic is Real;
the Synergy of both now
is truly beyond measure; "it's just a fact", Life is Art at Best;
The Life We Can and Will Co-Create Now is beyond the iMaGiNaTioN of Yesterday.
In other Words; Demons, Ghosts, and UFO's someone else created; i'll do something new.

As Far as UFO's go; any Species developing enough Empathy to get along without destroying
each other; more than likely Would have Enough Empathy and Common Sense to understand
Just How great the Gift of Life is that Makes Life worth Dying to Live; and additionally, my God
We are only Evolved to Live Where We are Evolved to Live; only a 'Rocket Scientist' could miss
'the knows' of their face. Empathy that is advanced in Compassion Extends out Far more than
Just the Flesh and Blood of One Species; for less than a Grain of Sand will be Seen as the Foundation
for whatever stands upon it with the Force of Love. Humans like this Will Go Down With their Ship before Fleeing
with their
tails
tucked
between their legs...
If one ever really lives one won't be scared of dying;
This is What Flow Teaches; Now Is Eternal; and all that is; that's spiritual enough for me, at least..:)

It would be a bit of a Nightmare, if 'the Beatles' Were the only Band that ever existed..... And Yesterday is all there is.....


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AprilR
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19 Jan 2020, 11:33 am

I strongly believe in spiritual beings even though i can't sense them well. I have had weirs things happen to me too, though whether it was the effect of the meds i was using at the time i am not sure.
Btw thanks for the book rec Isabella!