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The_Walrus
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02 Mar 2020, 11:29 am

funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.

This is my personal belief, but I do think there is intellectual value in positing first that God exists and going from there (as long as you remember the big assumption you made when forming your conclusions).

If there is a god, it is either cruel, ignorant, or weak. All of which are incompatible with mainstream interpretations of the Christian God.



aghogday
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02 Mar 2020, 12:22 pm

'God' is Dark
Light Comes From
Dark at Least this is
What An Astronaut then
Said Viewing 'Home/God' From Space.
i Agree; i've just about 'seen' every Darkness
in Life And Have Seen it ALL GroW into Light
Never the Less
'The Lion'
Will Eat
me and 'Burp'
And Chances are
After that a Big Bang Again
With or Without me; i exist now; That's Enough;
Surely Better than Nothing for me; 'Nature' Consumes
Nature At Best We Savor Every 'Bite and Drink' the
Fruits of the
Earth/God that the
Lion Decays in Every
Leaf of Grass to Birth
New Food and Drink...
in continuing Balance/'Circle of Life'
in other
Words it
Depends on How You/We/Us/i 'See'...
Limiting 'God TM Trademark' to one Man;
Limiting God to 'Perfect';
Is little understanding what
it means to be a Never Ending
Machine of Existence Versus Breath
That Feels Senses Changes Evolves Colors
Dark thru Light Lives and Dies Lives and Dies
What is Light Without Darkness Nothing Nothing
At All... Science Agrees.... at least... and i agree..:)


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AngelRho
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06 Mar 2020, 9:32 am

The_Walrus wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.

This is my personal belief, but I do think there is intellectual value in positing first that God exists and going from there (as long as you remember the big assumption you made when forming your conclusions).

If there is a god, it is either cruel, ignorant, or weak. All of which are incompatible with mainstream interpretations of the Christian God.

It depends on your measure of cruelty. You could say, for example, if a child misbehaves and a parent disciplines the child through whatever means--naughty chair, timeout, taking away a toy/privileges, etc.--that the parent is being cruel. However, if a parent's choice of discipline, physical or otherwise, results in a well-behaved, well-adjusted, productive adult, there is some truth to "doing this for your own good." You could say it's never appropriate to strike a child (not trying to make a case for physical punishment here). But I wouldn't hesitate to "hit" a child if by "hitting" a child I was restraining the kid before he ran out in front of a speeding car. If he falls down and gets a bump or scrape because I was trying to save his life, I'd rather he be bumped or scraped than dead. I'd rather he not get hurt AT ALL. But reasonable force is a thing, and whatever happens over the course of keeping a child as safe as possible can't be a parent's primary concern if it happens to be a matter of life or death.

Since God is responsible for all of creation, He can choose whatever level of care for it that He wants at whatever time He wants. Depending on how you interpret Genesis, God has destroyed the world possibly twice, and apocalyptic writings point to a final destruction. It's not more or less cruel than if I cut down a tree or two to build a house as a shelter from the elements. It just is what it is, and all we're left with is at worst our own dissatisfaction with how God chooses to act. Whether it really is cruel--does it really matter? Is it even relevant? And, like a parent who might have to use a higher level of force to protect a child from even himself, can we be certain that if God behaved the way WE want Him to that the world that WE would have used God to create would be any better than the one we have? Can we know for certain that God's will for humanity and the universe could be accomplished any other way?

It seems to me a key feature of humanity is possessing the ability to choose a perfect world or to attempt to improve upon an already-perfect universe, to choose between an eternal life in which one is incapable of evil (even if he is unaware of what evil is) and the cycle of life and death in a broken world WITH the ability to choose evil and preferring an existence with God versus an existence devoid of Him. In other words, if you want no God, you get no God.

Would we really be better off if we never had that choice? The answer is irrelevant. Given the state of a world that allows for sin to exist, one cannot logically make an argument that a better possible world could exist as a logical necessity. It's logically possible that this world already is the solution to evil and that it is a matter of a progression towards humanity ultimately realizing the paradise God had intended from the beginning as a product of choice. To alter any part of that course might be ACTUAL cruelty in one being denied even the opportunity for reconciliation with God. If I hypothetically grab a small child by the arm, pull him out of oncoming traffic, and leave a bruise, better the bruise than dead. If it were possible that I could have used less force than that to prevent a disaster, I would have. I think much of the assessment of God as cruel comes from the bruises we experience in the way of God trying to save us. Without the ability to see ourselves or our world as God sees everything, we have no way to know. Because God is good, God can be understood to work towards what is ultimately best.



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13 Mar 2020, 3:23 pm

philosophically yes...but I don't believe in him.

I guess there is a small part of me that isn't 100% sure, but either way if he is real and really the one true god then I will for sure be going to hell. I don't want to worship a god, even if that means eternal damnation I suppose.


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13 Mar 2020, 3:48 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.


I strongly disagree. Fictious characters definitely have traits and behaviours. How else could you describe them? Why would anyone be interested or read about them if they didn't?

The God of the Bible is one of the most cruel, injust, sadistic and narcissistic characters in all of literature: he plays cruel mind games, decides on a whim who is worthy and who isn't, tortured people for all eternity just for not believing in him or his son, who is the same as he, anyway, and who he himself killed - even though he is himself - to take away the sins that he himself created but mocks people by telling them they have a choice because he also created free will. That's so twisted...



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13 Mar 2020, 10:02 pm

Callafiriel wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.


I strongly disagree. Fictious characters definitely have traits and behaviours. How else could you describe them? Why would anyone be interested or read about them if they didn't?

The God of the Bible is one of the most cruel, injust, sadistic and narcissistic characters in all of literature: he plays cruel mind games, decides on a whim who is worthy and who isn't, tortured people for all eternity just for not believing in him or his son, who is the same as he, anyway, and who he himself killed - even though he is himself - to take away the sins that he himself created but mocks people by telling them they have a choice because he also created free will. That's so twisted...


Agree with this. Also how can there be free will if god knows ahead of time what you are going to do based on characteristics he assigned you? Seems like the will was always with god. You can do what you want based on the wants god gave you but can never do something other than what god knew you would prior to you being born, unless you have the power to prove god wrong.



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19 Mar 2020, 5:25 am

I'm not a believer and after losing family members I feel that if there is a god I would want to scream and tell him what I think of him.



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19 Mar 2020, 10:59 am

Callafiriel wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.


I strongly disagree. Fictious characters definitely have traits and behaviours. How else could you describe them? Why would anyone be interested or read about them if they didn't?

The God of the Bible is one of the most cruel, injust, sadistic and narcissistic characters in all of literature: he plays cruel mind games, decides on a whim who is worthy and who isn't, tortured people for all eternity just for not believing in him or his son, who is the same as he, anyway, and who he himself killed - even though he is himself - to take away the sins that he himself created but mocks people by telling them they have a choice because he also created free will. That's so twisted...



Discussing whether or not the God of Abraham feels cruel is as useful and relevant as discussing whether or not Darth Vader feels cruel.


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20 Mar 2020, 8:48 am

I gave up on Abrahamic cosmology and the worst of these inconsistencies went away.

Best to just try to understand what's happening a posteriori rather than a priori.


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24 Mar 2020, 4:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Callafiriel wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.


I strongly disagree. Fictious characters definitely have traits and behaviours. How else could you describe them? Why would anyone be interested or read about them if they didn't?

The God of the Bible is one of the most cruel, injust, sadistic and narcissistic characters in all of literature: he plays cruel mind games, decides on a whim who is worthy and who isn't, tortured people for all eternity just for not believing in him or his son, who is the same as he, anyway, and who he himself killed - even though he is himself - to take away the sins that he himself created but mocks people by telling them they have a choice because he also created free will. That's so twisted...



Discussing whether or not the God of Abraham feels cruel is as useful and relevant as discussing whether or not Darth Vader feels cruel.


But how many of us were taught darth vader was real? probably no one, whereas the same cannot be said of the god of abraham.


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funeralxempire
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24 Mar 2020, 5:22 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Callafiriel wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
God can't be cruel. In order to be cruel God would need to exist but since no gods exist they can't possibly have traits or behaviours.


I strongly disagree. Fictious characters definitely have traits and behaviours. How else could you describe them? Why would anyone be interested or read about them if they didn't?

The God of the Bible is one of the most cruel, injust, sadistic and narcissistic characters in all of literature: he plays cruel mind games, decides on a whim who is worthy and who isn't, tortured people for all eternity just for not believing in him or his son, who is the same as he, anyway, and who he himself killed - even though he is himself - to take away the sins that he himself created but mocks people by telling them they have a choice because he also created free will. That's so twisted...



Discussing whether or not the God of Abraham feels cruel is as useful and relevant as discussing whether or not Darth Vader feels cruel.


But how many of us were taught darth vader was real? probably no one, whereas the same cannot be said of the god of abraham.


Once you've outgrown that understanding why would it continue to be relevant?

How often does the Bible, the Book of Mormon and/or the Quran deal with God's internal thoughts and reflections on his own actions?

Whether or not YHWH feels cruel over his actions isn't directly addressed in canon so the entire conversation is just fan speculation, even if they take it even more seriously than Star Wars fans take speculative discussions about their preferred fantasy.


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30 Mar 2020, 2:01 pm

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
Do you too think God is cruel or just indifferent either way, if he/she exists?


When I'm not in the mood to play the edgy maltheist, I figure that while God might care if they knew what we were going through, I don't think they have any idea we're here. I think we're an unintended consequence of whatever design God had for the universe, but we aren't quite noisy enough to get God's attention yet.


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