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naturalplastic
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08 May 2020, 6:51 pm

I love belko61 wrote:
They should call it Guessing. How can anyone do anything but guess without asking questions. And if you have context there is no theory involved. The inconsistencies revolve around the examples I've often read. Ranging from stupidly basic to so what?. Maybe I just don't like being subjective, preferring first hand knowledge before I make assumptions. I do make snap judgements all the time but it's a matter of "odds are" and not truths.


Well the guessing is not about things like coin flips, or how fast an object falls in a vacuum . Its about how other humans are acting or thinking. That requires a person to (consciously or not) construct a model of the other person's mind inside their own mind. A lot of that in turn ends up you projecting yourself onto others, rightly or wrongly. Supposedly autistics are bad at theory of mind. Maybe they project their own autistic minds on to NTs. Or maybe autistics are just plain bad at it with anyone. The former is more often the case IMHO. Autistics are bad at TOM with NTs but not with their own. But I digress.

Monkeys in Thailand will extort food from tourists by taking your stuff and holding it for ransom. The monkey will swipe your sunglasses, or your hat, and keep until you give them a snack, and then they will give it back to you. So the monkeys have a certain "theory of mind" about humans that serves them well.



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08 May 2020, 7:03 pm

When you put in terms of causality I really have a tough time calculating future events, thus I can have anxiety over how other people will react to me. But I think I'm adequate at sizing up situations that I walk into. But in truth I rarely consider the reasons behind this or that. Preferring to find a solution if needed.



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08 May 2020, 7:18 pm

From the ausm.org website: Theory of Mind: "The ability to recognize and understand the thoughts, feelings, and intentions of others is called theory of mind. Many people with autism struggle to understand that other people have different thoughts, beliefs, values, and experiences than their own, due to difficulty with theory of mind."

Yes, I have a big challenge with this. I get confused and frustrated when things that seem very obvious to me are not obvious to other people. "Out of sight, out of mind" is also something that plays a big part in how I do and do not see the world. The idea that other people not in my household really exist is an abstract concept for me rather than reality. I know they do, but it's difficult for me to really wrap my mind around it. That there are billions of people "out there" (ie not in my own world I can see) existing as individuals. It's similar to the fact that I know the universe exists but I don't really understand or grasp the scope of it.


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08 May 2020, 7:22 pm

There are two related definitions of theory of mind.

The professional one is the ability to understand that different people have different prospectives then yourself. This is what Simon Baron Cohen proposed that autistic people lack. For a number of years most professionals accepted this but in recent years this has been challenged.

I have understood this basic concept as long as I can remember.

The colloquial definition is understanding that a different person might have a different perspectives. Another colloquial definition is understanding the specific different perspectives another person has.

I have read a lot about it so I think I have a good idea why people voted for Donald Trump in 2016. This is based on verbal communication.

I do not have a good idea if people are bored with me and want me to shut up. I lack understanding when people want me to enter a conversation. I lack the understanding if people were generally laughing with or at the character Sheldon on “The Big Bang Theory”. The above are nonverbal communication caused lack of understandings

NT’s have misunderstandings all the time because of differing life experiences. In addition to the reasons NT’s have misunderstandings it is my and many professionals view that Autistics have MORE non verbal communication caused misunderstandings.


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08 May 2020, 10:48 pm

I thought the TED talk below hit some worthwhile notes on theory of mind:



One of the things she mentioned, where I think she's right, NT's don't have great theory of mind save for other NT's. Based on numbers the playing field is stilted, hence we're just now figuring out that you can test how well or how poorly NT's communicate with NT's, how well or how poorly AS communicate with AS, and it seems like the worst of the two worlds in terms of communication was mixing AS and NT.

I'd also have to offer - as far as my NT friends and the NT coworkers I've had, there really is a rote script where if you leave it many if not most of them are completely confused. It's a bit like saying that what's 'wrong' with you is that your brain can paint outside of certain lines that they simply take for reality rather than realizing that their lines are subsets of a larger whole.


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09 May 2020, 12:35 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I thought the TED talk below hit some worthwhile notes on theory of mind:



One of the things she mentioned, where I think she's right, NT's don't have great theory of mind save for other NT's. Based on numbers the playing field is stilted, hence we're just now figuring out that you can test how well or how poorly NT's communicate with NT's, how well or how poorly AS communicate with AS, and it seems like the worst of the two worlds in terms of communication was mixing AS and NT.

I'd also have to offer - as far as my NT friends and the NT coworkers I've had, there really is a rote script where if you leave it many if not most of them are completely confused. It's a bit like saying that what's 'wrong' with you is that your brain can paint outside of certain lines that they simply take for reality rather than realizing that their lines are subsets of a larger whole.


The fact that the study found that NT's communicate well with NTs but not with autistics (and vice versa) makes more sense to me than the thinking that communication breakdown is all the autistic person's fault and not equally a deficit of the NT. It's like saying two people who speak different languages and are trying to communicate with each other have difficulty understanding each other but it's only one of their faults? Wrong. When you think of it this way, it's so obvious.

I experienced firsthand that autistics communicate well and more comfortably with each other on more than one occasion. The first time was an an autism conference "by autistics for autistics". It was heaven. The second time was being the founder and facilitator of an adult autism group. We all had a comfort level talking with each other that none of us would have felt had we been a mixed group or especially an NT dominated group.


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"There is no love of living without despair of life." - Albert Camus

"Ain't nothing but a stranger in this world
I'm nothing but a stranger in this world" -Van Morrison

"Are you Bluish? You don't look Bluish."

AQ-43 (32-50 indicates a strong likelihood of Asperger syndrome or autism).
EQ-14 out of 80
Rdos: Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 173 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 39 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)


naturalplastic
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09 May 2020, 1:12 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I thought the TED talk below hit some worthwhile notes on theory of mind:



One of the things she mentioned, where I think she's right, NT's don't have great theory of mind save for other NT's. Based on numbers the playing field is stilted, hence we're just now figuring out that you can test how well or how poorly NT's communicate with NT's, how well or how poorly AS communicate with AS, and it seems like the worst of the two worlds in terms of communication was mixing AS and NT.

I'd also have to offer - as far as my NT friends and the NT coworkers I've had, there really is a rote script where if you leave it many if not most of them are completely confused. It's a bit like saying that what's 'wrong' with you is that your brain can paint outside of certain lines that they simply take for reality rather than realizing that their lines are subsets of a larger whole.


This is what I am talking about.

Autistics supposedly lack this thing called TOM. It could be that they lack it for EVERYONE. Or...what is more likely, both NTs and ASD folks have good TOM for themselves. And both project themselves on to others when interacting with others. ASD construct correct models of ASD minds in their own minds, and NT correctly construct models of NT minds in their heads. And both mess up when interacting with those of the other neurology because both project themselves onto the person of the other neurology. But both communicate effectively with persons of their own neurology.



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10 May 2020, 5:02 am

I agree that there's a mutual lack of theory of mind between autistic people and NTs, or between people that are very different to each other in general.

However, I find the experiment the woman in the video talks about to be utterly useless to show this. Whispering a sentence around a group of people has nothing to do with normal conversation, cognitive empathy or theory of mind. All it tests is hearing, auditory processing, speaking clearly and maybe knowing how loud you need to whisper for others to understand.
If they carried the experiment out like the woman describes they also had a sample size of 1 for autistic group, a sample size of 1 for neurotypical group and a sample size of 1 for mixed group, probably doing multiple repetitions for each of these groups. To get the result that the mixed group performs worse it's enough if you have one person in that group who is hard of hearing or maybe does not take the experiment entirely serious. Anything you do with sample sizes of 1 is utterly useless.
Of course the woman could have simplified the setup for the audience and maybe they put each person into the homogenous and into the mixed group for some repetitions. I wouldn't know without seeing the actual study. But either way the experiment does not test what they claim they're testing.

From interacting with other autistic people I got the impression that for some the only problem with theory of mind may be what the video termed double empathy problem, but others may have actual deficits in interpersonal interaction that go beyond that.

One autistic person who talked at me (not with me) ignored everything I replied. Sometimes he just monologued and sometimes he ask me a personal question and added an assumption about what the answer to that question was. I negated his assumption and told him the actual answer (e.g. about if/where I go to school). He then proceeded to ignore my answer and continued talking about which subway stations I needed to get to the school I was on my way to, directly after I had told him that I do not attend that school and was not on my way to any school and told him where I was going instead. After telling him three times that I didn't attend that school only for him to continue assuming that I did, I gave up on trying to tell him anything and just nodded to everything he assumed and let him monologue at me. Now, maybe two such people would have no problem having a conversation with each other, but only because both would completely ignore what the other says and would talk at each other without reacting to anything the other says and they would not have any concept of each other's mind either. Of course he may have additional issues, like auditory processing, but no matter what he's not able to have an actual conversation with anyone, autistic or not.

Another autistic person (although on the internet) said that for a long time he didn't lie because he was unaware that other people had different knowledge (also about events that took place in his presence, but their absence) than he did and therefore didn't know that he could possibly mislead anyone. That's not just assuming that other people's minds basically work like your own - which NT's often do as well - but that's assuming that other people's minds are literally identical in what they are aware of or not.

Both of them probably have theory of mind problems that go beyond a double empathy problem.



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10 May 2020, 6:28 am

^
The guy in that last paragraph would have failed the "Sally Anne Test".

Which is a test shrinks use to test a certain aspect of TOM. Originally designed to test TOM in autistic children.

More recently they have designed non verbal equivalents of the Sally Anne test for nonhuman animals. Monkeys usually fail the test, but the great apes usually pass it (but some autistic humans fail it). Just google "Sally Anne Test" to get to the Wiki article. It tests how well you figure out what another individual likely knows and doesn't know in extremely simple situations.



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10 May 2020, 9:51 am

naturalplastic wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I thought the TED talk below hit some worthwhile notes on theory of mind:



One of the things she mentioned, where I think she's right, NT's don't have great theory of mind save for other NT's. Based on numbers the playing field is stilted, hence we're just now figuring out that you can test how well or how poorly NT's communicate with NT's, how well or how poorly AS communicate with AS, and it seems like the worst of the two worlds in terms of communication was mixing AS and NT.

I'd also have to offer - as far as my NT friends and the NT coworkers I've had, there really is a rote script where if you leave it many if not most of them are completely confused. It's a bit like saying that what's 'wrong' with you is that your brain can paint outside of certain lines that they simply take for reality rather than realizing that their lines are subsets of a larger whole.


This is what I am talking about.

Autistics supposedly lack this thing called TOM. It could be that they lack it for EVERYONE. Or...what is more likely, both NTs and ASD folks have good TOM for themselves. And both project themselves on to others when interacting with others. ASD construct correct models of ASD minds in their own minds, and NT correctly construct models of NT minds in their heads. And both mess up when interacting with those of the other neurology because both project themselves onto the person of the other neurology. But both communicate effectively with persons of their own neurology.


Have they actually found that ASD have good theory of mind with one another? Two people with poor social skills don't seem necessarily like they'd socialize better together.


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naturalplastic
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10 May 2020, 10:23 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I thought the TED talk below hit some worthwhile notes on theory of mind:



One of the things she mentioned, where I think she's right, NT's don't have great theory of mind save for other NT's. Based on numbers the playing field is stilted, hence we're just now figuring out that you can test how well or how poorly NT's communicate with NT's, how well or how poorly AS communicate with AS, and it seems like the worst of the two worlds in terms of communication was mixing AS and NT.

I'd also have to offer - as far as my NT friends and the NT coworkers I've had, there really is a rote script where if you leave it many if not most of them are completely confused. It's a bit like saying that what's 'wrong' with you is that your brain can paint outside of certain lines that they simply take for reality rather than realizing that their lines are subsets of a larger whole.


This is what I am talking about.

Autistics supposedly lack this thing called TOM. It could be that they lack it for EVERYONE. Or...what is more likely, both NTs and ASD folks have good TOM for themselves. And both project themselves on to others when interacting with others. ASD construct correct models of ASD minds in their own minds, and NT correctly construct models of NT minds in their heads. And both mess up when interacting with those of the other neurology because both project themselves onto the person of the other neurology. But both communicate effectively with persons of their own neurology.


Have they actually found that ASD have good theory of mind with one another? Two people with poor social skills don't seem necessarily like they'd socialize better together.


they may not socialize well together, but they still may be able think alike and therefore communicate with each other better.



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10 May 2020, 1:57 pm



Meh; You've Met One Autistic Person; You've Met Just one.

Autism Is assessed by Behavior; Not By Genetics Alone;
of course there are exceptions Like Fragile X-Syndrome
That Make All the Behavioral Assessments Smell Like 'Autism'.

Science Already Shows Environment Counts in Autism as much
or more As Genetics; Epigenetic Potential Unpacks; Yes or NO,
Depending On Environmental Challenges; YES or No For What We
all do or do not get labeled with/as now; People Do Change and So Do Labels.

Some Folks on the Autism Spectrum Have Copious Amounts of
Empathy; Either Cognitive or Affective; Some Are Assessed with
Poorly Functioning Mirror Neuron Systems; Others in Research
Are Assessed With Extremely Sensitive Mirror Neuron Systems;
About 50 Percent of Higher Functioning Autistic Folks Have
Been Assessed as Having Non-Verbal Learning Difficulties;
About 33 Percent in College are STEM Majors; the Majority
Researched Are Not; Surely Dispelling that old Myth too;

The Genetics are all over the place
And So Is the Environment; the only
Real thing that most Autistic Folks Have
in Common now Is The Behavioral Deficits
for the Label as that is Precisely what it is;
A Combination of Behavioral Deficits in Social Reciprocal
Communication Deficits; As Well as Repetitive Special Interests
That Interfere and Are Considered Functionally Disabling in what
is Assessed by Society as 'Normal' Society'. Highly Unlikely that 'then'
Someone Like Michelangelo Would have Been Considered as having
A Deficit, Simply For His Special Interests and Repetitive Behaviors that
Created Art Second to None; if he had a Job at McDonald's 'These Days'
who knows Now
what he would
have Been
Diagnosed
With then; Labels come
And Go; Human Stay and they change.
i've observed this Internet Site Long Enough
to See How Well 'Cats Get along in the Wild'.

Second Part of Comment Provided Below


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Last edited by aghogday on 10 May 2020, 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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10 May 2020, 1:58 pm

Second Part of Comment.

And yes, By Their own Admission; Some Autistic
Folks Have Tons of Empathy And Some Do Admit they have none;
Some are obviously Super Honest; and Others Fall to whatever
Conspiracy Theory comes next.

People Are Alike All Over;
God yes, They are Different;
Personally a Little Pepper Mixed
In With the Salt Makes The Scrambled Eggs Better at least to me;
At Least Interesting to study And that's for Dam sure as this isn't
the only place i visit by far
by far... far
side.. far...
FARTHER NoW; TG.

In other words, This Epigenetic
Thing Works; Put 'Your Eggs'
All in 'One Basket' and
Don't Expect to
be anything
Different
Than a 'Chicken';
It's Just a Metaphor that
Means if we are not all Careful
We will Become Trapped in a Cave or Zoo;
and not even realize who or where or what we are now.

My Emotional Quotient Test Went From the Mid 50's to the Mid 90's.
My RDOS Aspie Quiz Score went from 195 to 92; Tests Don't Lie.
My Simon Baron Cohen Autism Scan Score Went from 45 to 11.
My Personality Traits Move from INTJ To ENFP Depending on
what i need for the Social Environment at Hand for Success
in whatever i am doing now.
And That all Happened
in Just one Summer
when i was 53;
as i also
gained
3 times
in Leg
pressing
Strength
Empirically
Measured from
500 Pounds to
1520 Pounds
by my age
now close
to 60;
i move;
i don't
stay
in one
place; i am
constantly subjecting
myself to Environmental
New Challenges; Every Word
And Every Step now Becomes a
New Color of Life. We Most all have
that choice. Mileage (Environment)
And Make (Genetics) of Human Vehicles
And Vessels
in Challenge
May
Actually
increase the
Colors and the
Feel of Life Dark thru Light;
Do or Do Not Do pretty much sums life up.

And Yes; Self-fulfilling Prophecies And
Or Wishes Do Tend to come to Do as
Well Again and Again; or Different True
in Dark Thru Light oF LiFE For Real NoW.


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10 May 2020, 2:24 pm

Thirdly, One Might Ask Since i Excel in all these
Areas Now That are no longer considered so-called
Autistic; Why do i still have a Diagnosis; Well, one thing
Hasn't Changed; and the Science of Autism Already Suggests
That Some Folks on the Autism Spectrum May Overcome most
of The Deficits; but as Long as they are still having issues with
Restricted Repetitive Behavioral Special Interests that Still Creates
Issues with 'so-called' 'Normal Functioning' in Society of Course they
keep their Diagnosis. My Special Interests are Worthless to make money.

Society Equals Money Equals God at Least in the United States WHere 'Trumps' Rule.

i don't believe in 'those Gods'; And i surely Refuse to Worship them
Now that i am Financially Independent after Being their Slave.

i BeLiEVE iN Happy; Heaven is A Way for me; As God IS

LoVE iN Truth; in Other Words Life; An Only Way for my Life

at least.

Writing an 8 MiLLioN Word EPiC Long Form Bible Poem in 80 Months
AND Public Dancing 13,144 Miles in the Same 80 Months Actually
Removes the Reciprocal Social Communication Difficulties as i can
Get along with most anyone in Public Now; although they may not come
Back for a
Second 'Fred Talk'
Haha; as yes i have
a whole lot to say;
Only Stands to Reason
after writing an 8 MiLLioN
Word Epic Long Form Poem Bible.
Interestingly, the Intensity of the Special
Interests that are very Human starting with
my College Degrees of Anthropology, Social Sciences
Interdisciplinary, and Health Science; as i surely could
have been an Accountant, if i wanted to make Money instead
of being a bit more Human for what i saw my difficulties to be then;
YeS, iN Summary
Physician
Heal thy
Self; but first
You have to be
big enough to See
You have a problem and i did;
i corrected the Deficits and i thrive now;
i don't have many Friends; but the ones i have are life-long;
Other than that the rest of the Town sees me as famous just for playing in Public.

Life is Good,
If You Figure
Out How to make it Good.
It's Really as simple as that
And As Fearless As Freedom
Always Comes With Loving Life.

One thing i've found
Now That Separates me from
almost every one here (Not just 'Here')
is i am truly happy... go figure... Out... Life...
Dance, Sing, Eat, Sleep, Repeat Those 'Two
Things' for me is all it takes with Love.

i Never Stop
Practicing;
Truly
A Key
to my Imperfect Perfection of Happy.


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10 May 2020, 2:47 pm

auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
This topic belongs in General Autism. Don't see how it belongs in PPR. But to answer your question. Yes. Lack of TOM is a big part of being on the autism spectrum.

fixed it for ya here ;) -
conservatives don't grok how liberals think, and vice-versa. each sees the other through a cracked lens that is more reflective of their own biases.


Okay.

TOM is usually discussed on General Autism because it has to do with diagnostic traits of autism, ergo I think of it as a medical and pyschiatric issue. But yes even NTs can have TOM issues with other NTs with differing creeds, and life experiences, and educational backgrounds, etc. So...have it your way...and put it in Philosophy too! :lol:

The two genders also seem to think differently. And much like AS vs NTs, men and women seem to think differently due to differences in brain hardware. And not just differences in nurture or in experience.



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11 May 2020, 4:21 am

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
This topic belongs in General Autism. Don't see how it belongs in PPR. But to answer your question. Yes. Lack of TOM is a big part of being on the autism spectrum.

fixed it for ya here ;) -
conservatives don't grok how liberals think, and vice-versa. each sees the other through a cracked lens that is more reflective of their own biases.


Okay.

TOM is usually discussed on General Autism because it has to do with diagnostic traits of autism, ergo I think of it as a medical and pyschiatric issue. But yes even NTs can have TOM issues with other NTs with differing creeds, and life experiences, and educational backgrounds, etc. So...have it your way...and put it in Philosophy too! :lol:

The two genders also seem to think differently. And much like AS vs NTs, men and women seem to think differently due to differences in brain hardware. And not just differences in nurture or in experience.

one big example of that gender difference can be boiled down to the success of one company- bose corp. most men dislike the philosophy and the sound quality of bose home audio products, particularly the wave radios and the lifestyle systems. women like them because they are "convenient" and "easy to use" and "uncomplicated." they are "lifestyle products" more than audio products, women tend to go for lifestyle products. in high-end audio, there is a paucity of female audiophiles because, despite their demonstrably keener hearing, they by and large can't be bothered with the specificity and complexity of it, they just want their music there in a ready way with no fuss. so what if it doesn't have much bass or treble, they can hear bass and treble better than most men anyways so not a problem for them.