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magz
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14 Jul 2020, 9:20 am

Bradleigh wrote:
I have read cases where cis women have been victims of being accused of being men, because people decided to be overzealous.

There is a Polish proverb: "Nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu" - literally "Overzealousness is worse than fascism".


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14 Jul 2020, 1:01 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
That's exactly why these people were interviewed: to make a stand against the bigots who "cancelled" them.


1) An artist who made a transphobic newspaper cartoon that portrays transgender people as hungry predators.

2) A radio host who denies the existence of white privilege, and used "White Lives Matter" in response to BLM, a racist dog whistle. Looks like a brief hiatus and voluntary decision not to do call ins.

3) He kind of seems to be acting a bit entitled to a sponsorship, when his politics don't line up with the sponsor.

4) An academic getting awfully close to eugenics in wanting to control how many children people on welfare can have.

5) This guy does not even canceled, just questioned over public statements on Twitter that included All Lives Matter, 'Gender is Real' (I wonder if it is meant to be 'sex is real'), and some sort of comments against 'mass immigration. It is not saying exactly what, but there are chanced that these things could underlie racist and transphobic beliefs, that could make it difficult to do his job properly as an educator.

These people show some signs of discrimination, I can see reasons why people would not want to support these people, and why employers might want to question standing behind them. Not a lot of information, but none of these seem to be cases where they are misunderstood for their opinions, rather than logical results from them.

Can you tell me which ones you think are an injustice?


But you don't get it. Bigots are entitled to spew hateful offensive ideas and never risk losing a single friend over it. Anything else is communism and reverse racism and a bunch of other nonsense phrases.


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16 Jul 2020, 7:46 am

What's the difference in J.K. Rowling and L. Ron Hubbard spouting medical psychiatric quackery? None. Just that L. Ron Hubbard started a massive cult that seems to be full of Hollywood celebrities and creative types. She liked a comment that said that people who are taking antidepressants as 'weak'.

So I'm guessing this is how she feels about the kids who have mental health issues that like her work.

She isn't a psychiatrist and doesn't need to masquerade as one on twitter.



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18 Jul 2020, 7:44 pm


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18 Jul 2020, 7:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
But you don't get it. Bigots are entitled to spew hateful offensive ideas and never risk losing a single friend over it. Anything else is communism and reverse racism and a bunch of other nonsense phrases.


The cold war was a great distraction for the masses. "Reds under the bed" allowed the US government to arrest people for basically practicing their first amendment rights. Calling an American a commie is probably still worse than calling them Nazi (who can forget thousands of ex-Nazis were employed by NATO and the US rocket program after the war).



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18 Jul 2020, 9:46 pm

I see we're getting mired into transmisogyny, that's always nice.
These objections to letting trans women into 'regular' women's spaces always boil down to some very radfem-y assumptions.
We shouldn't let trans women into women's domestic violence groups? This operates under the assumption that all women who are victims of domestic violence at the hands of men. Women are fully capable of committing domestic violence, whether they're with men or women. You think only men can abuse women? You're living in a fantasy world. It also operates under the assumption that the presence of someone with a penis necessarily makes those women less safe. Having a penis does not make one predisposed to violence against people without penises (despite the patriarchy's best efforts to make it so). Where would you have these transwomen go if they are victims of domestic violence? Separate but equal support groups? Because a fraction of cis women think anyone with a penis is going to hurt them?

The bathroom argument is equally inane. There's a reason certain radfems and conservatives like to latch onto that argument so much. It's because they seem to believe that if you have a penis, you will not be able to keep yourself from violating the privacy of those who do not have penises. The conservative in this instance is essentially admitting they do not have faith in men (read: people with penises) to not be violent or perverse in women's spaces. Don't act like these are necessary risks that come from people who have penises. Your genitals do not predetermine your character. Maybe you don't trust the men in your life to behave in such circumstances. Don't assume the rest of us are like that just so you have an excuse to treat transwomen like sh*t.

The number of actual instances of transwomen assaulting other women in the restroom is staggeringly low. It is not a real problem. It is microscopic compared to the problem of transphobia. Transphobia is the real problem. Transphobia causes far, far deadlier violence than letting transwomen use the restroom they want.


Getting back to the original topic: creating social consequences for spouting bigotry cannot be likened to intolerance of different beliefs.
Trans people (and people who, you know, actually respect their feelings) are not cancelling people like Rowling because they cannot handle differences of opinion or belief. They are doing it because she is suggesting that they are less deserving of dignity and equal rights despite not actually hurting anyone by being trans.

Trans people and their allies are creating social consequences for people who express transphobia, because transphobia gets people killed.
Black people and their allies are creating social consequences for people who act like white supremacy is not a problem, because white supremacy gets people killed.
Latinx Americans and their allies are creating social consequences for people who act like immigrants are the problem, because anti-immigrant sentiment gets people killed.

This is not comparable to dictatorial ideological purity tests.
People in Maoist China created horrific consequences for innocent people for not falling in line with state propaganda.
People creating social and economic consequences for people being unapologetically intolerant are doing so out of concern for the people who are being treated with intolerance. Not because they have been brainwashed by a state. But because they actually recognize the damage that is always caused by espousing bigoted beliefs. They actually listen to the stories of people whose lives have been destroyed or ended by the spread of those beliefs.
"But what about what socialism has done--" The tyranny and atrocities of the USSR and the PRC are not essential to socialism or communism. Unless they're tankies, socialists are not advocating Holodomors or Great Leaps Forward or one party states.
Endangering minorities, however, is always a feature of intolerance against those groups.
I'm queer. If you have a problem with queer people, I am not going to respect that. It has nothing to do with me hating anyone who disagrees with me. I am not going to respectfully disagree with someone who believes that I deserve less dignity than they do bc of things out of my control.


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19 Jul 2020, 7:13 am

roronoa79 wrote:
I see we're getting mired into transmisogyny, that's always nice.
These objections to letting trans women into 'regular' women's spaces always boil down to some very radfem-y assumptions.
We shouldn't let trans women into women's domestic violence groups? This operates under the assumption that all women who are victims of domestic violence at the hands of men. Women are fully capable of committing domestic violence, whether they're with men or women. You think only men can abuse women? You're living in a fantasy world. It also operates under the assumption that the presence of someone with a penis necessarily makes those women less safe. Having a penis does not make one predisposed to violence against people without penises (despite the patriarchy's best efforts to make it so). Where would you have these transwomen go if they are victims of domestic violence? Separate but equal support groups? Because a fraction of cis women think anyone with a penis is going to hurt them?

The bathroom argument is equally inane. There's a reason certain radfems and conservatives like to latch onto that argument so much. It's because they seem to believe that if you have a penis, you will not be able to keep yourself from violating the privacy of those who do not have penises. The conservative in this instance is essentially admitting they do not have faith in men (read: people with penises) to not be violent or perverse in women's spaces. Don't act like these are necessary risks that come from people who have penises. Your genitals do not predetermine your character. Maybe you don't trust the men in your life to behave in such circumstances. Don't assume the rest of us are like that just so you have an excuse to treat transwomen like sh*t.

The number of actual instances of transwomen assaulting other women in the restroom is staggeringly low. It is not a real problem. It is microscopic compared to the problem of transphobia. Transphobia is the real problem. Transphobia causes far, far deadlier violence than letting transwomen use the restroom they want.


Getting back to the original topic: creating social consequences for spouting bigotry cannot be likened to intolerance of different beliefs.
Trans people (and people who, you know, actually respect their feelings) are not cancelling people like Rowling because they cannot handle differences of opinion or belief. They are doing it because she is suggesting that they are less deserving of dignity and equal rights despite not actually hurting anyone by being trans.

Trans people and their allies are creating social consequences for people who express transphobia, because transphobia gets people killed.
Black people and their allies are creating social consequences for people who act like white supremacy is not a problem, because white supremacy gets people killed.
Latinx Americans and their allies are creating social consequences for people who act like immigrants are the problem, because anti-immigrant sentiment gets people killed.

This is not comparable to dictatorial ideological purity tests.
People in Maoist China created horrific consequences for innocent people for not falling in line with state propaganda.
People creating social and economic consequences for people being unapologetically intolerant are doing so out of concern for the people who are being treated with intolerance. Not because they have been brainwashed by a state. But because they actually recognize the damage that is always caused by espousing bigoted beliefs. They actually listen to the stories of people whose lives have been destroyed or ended by the spread of those beliefs.
"But what about what socialism has done--" The tyranny and atrocities of the USSR and the PRC are not essential to socialism or communism. Unless they're tankies, socialists are not advocating Holodomors or Great Leaps Forward or one party states.
Endangering minorities, however, is always a feature of intolerance against those groups.
I'm queer. If you have a problem with queer people, I am not going to respect that. It has nothing to do with me hating anyone who disagrees with me. I am not going to respectfully disagree with someone who believes that I deserve less dignity than they do bc of things out of my control.


While many people yelling “cancel culture” and “PC” are doing it to deflect from their bigotry others object to judging people and creating consequences for people entirely by their bigotry, entirely by todays standards. Judging people as bigots that deserve consequences based on one word or action etc, one bad joke in other words playing gotcha.

These may not be ideological purity tests but they are purity tests with the same stifling effect.

What I have notices is that at times the people speaking as allies are speaking for them based on their assumptions. Black voters were instrumental in nominating Joe Biden despite his record of doing things that are considered more than disqualifying today.


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19 Jul 2020, 4:57 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
While many people yelling “cancel culture” and “PC” are doing it to deflect from their bigotry others object to judging people and creating consequences for people entirely by their bigotry, entirely by todays standards. Judging people as bigots that deserve consequences based on one word or action etc, one bad joke in other words playing gotcha.

These may not be ideological purity tests but they are purity tests with the same stifling effect.

What I have notices is that at times the people speaking as allies are speaking for them based on their assumptions. Black voters were instrumental in nominating Joe Biden despite his record of doing things that are considered more than disqualifying today.


I would actually agree, to an extent. I am no fan of cancel culture as a whole, as many of the most vocal ppl calling for cancelling others are overcompensating white allies. The high profile ppl who get 'cancelled' typically deserve their consequences bc of a refusal to own up to their biases and consider the perspectives of whatever group they are expressing bias against.
But everyday ppl that get 'cancelled' do not usually deserve the level of ostracism they do. Most anyone on the left will tell you that these social biases and injustices stem from people being directly or indirectly pressured by society to believe those things. For instance, we live in a (generally) racist society. That being said, if someone says something unintentionally racist, it does not do good to try to demolish them as a person. Unless they're openly malicious or condescending, more of an attempt should be made to reach out and educate them.
This is not me putting the onus on marginalized groups to engage in respectful discourse with these ppl. It's not always worth the emotional energy, and it can be hard to remain civil when the offensive statement is directed at you personally. And there's nothing wrong with struggling to be civil under such circumstances. But those of us who are unaffected or less affected by those statements should try to help ppl understand why others take issue with certain beliefs or behaviors. Instead of deciding they immediately need to be made into social pariahs.

And yes, the Joe Biden thing was a good example to bring up of what I'm talking about here. White voters were much more likely to refuse to vote for him bc of past (and present) racism than black voters. This doesn't mean the latter are just clueless to his misdeeds.
Another example that comes to mind was the controversy of the Virginia governor admitting to dressing in blackface decades ago. But then polls showed that black Democrats were much more willing to forgive him than white Democrats. Black Americans know what kind of environment most southern whites grow up in, and they're probably going to be more understanding if they had done racist things in the past as long as they're willing to own up to it. (Disclaimer that I'm white and know I can't completely speak to their beliefs and experiences).

So yes, and I say this as a queer leftist, there are many valid criticisms of cancel culture. It becomes frustrating to me when the most visible critics of it do not do so for what I see as the right reasons. There are reasons for people to face social consequences for certain actions and beliefs. But there is an undeniable problem of the most vocal and vicious 'cancellers' tend to be overcompensating whites who do so out of a desire to virtue signal, out of displaced self hatred at their own former ignorance, or a belief that they need to leap in and be white saviors to whoever.

(My damn anxiety disorder demands I apologize for being long-winded. I try not to come off like I'm flying off the handle or ranting. It can be hard to be succinct sometimes; I blame the autism).


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19 Jul 2020, 6:10 pm

magz wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I have read cases where cis women have been victims of being accused of being men, because people decided to be overzealous.

There is a Polish proverb: "Nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu" - literally "Overzealousness is worse than fascism".


Would it be fair to mention, that since most fascist regimes only exist for a fairly short period where most of their supporters are still worked up into a frenzy that over-zealousness is part of what makes fascism so bad? :mrgreen:


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19 Jul 2020, 9:53 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I have read cases where cis women have been victims of being accused of being men, because people decided to be overzealous.

There is a Polish proverb: "Nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu" - literally "Overzealousness is worse than fascism".


Would it be fair to mention, that since most fascist regimes only exist for a fairly short period where most of their supporters are still worked up into a frenzy that over-zealousness is part of what makes fascism so bad? :mrgreen:


So how do you explain Franco, Peron, Pinochet and Stroessner? seems Spanish speaking folk like their fascist leaders..



magz
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20 Jul 2020, 2:17 am

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I have read cases where cis women have been victims of being accused of being men, because people decided to be overzealous.

There is a Polish proverb: "Nadgorliwość jest gorsza od faszyzmu" - literally "Overzealousness is worse than fascism".

Would it be fair to mention, that since most fascist regimes only exist for a fairly short period where most of their supporters are still worked up into a frenzy that over-zealousness is part of what makes fascism so bad? :mrgreen:

So how do you explain Franco, Peron, Pinochet and Stroessner? seems Spanish speaking folk like their fascist leaders..

Maybe we should invite some history geek here but from what I know, the force stabilizing fascism is a perspective of communism as the only viable alternative - including why Hitler was elected for the first time.

I think we should learn a lesson from this: radical partisanship is the enabler. It's not some historical issue of some countries far away.

By the way, communist states also experienced massive deadly overzealousness.


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20 Jul 2020, 2:54 am

magz wrote:
Maybe we should invite some history geek here but from what I know, the force stabilizing fascism is a perspective of communism as the only viable alternative - including why Hitler was elected for the first time.

I think we should learn a lesson from this: radical partisanship is the enabler. It's not some historical issue of some countries far away.

By the way, communist states also experienced massive deadly overzealousness.


Even Hitler's regime lasted from 1933-1945, Mussolini lasted even longer 1925 - 1945. The Japanese were run by fascists from the mid 1930s to 1945.

What constitutes stable fascism is a matter of interpretation.



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20 Jul 2020, 3:11 am

Yeah, definitely comparing it to Soviet rule of 1917-1991 make them look ephemeridal.


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20 Jul 2020, 3:26 am

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Would it be fair to mention, that since most fascist regimes only exist for a fairly short period where most of their supporters are still worked up into a frenzy that over-zealousness is part of what makes fascism so bad? :mrgreen:


So how do you explain Franco, Peron, Pinochet and Stroessner? seems Spanish speaking folk like their fascist leaders..


Even after the zealousness that helps fascists come to power subsides, any opposition is intensely scrutinized at best and hunted down at worst. Unless there's a popular revolution or foreign intervention, fascists tend to hold onto power as long as they can however they can.

Franco came to power due to his support from the army when the civil war began. He received active support from the Axis powers, while the UK and France remained neutral. The bulk of the republicans' international support came from the USSR, something which deeply divided the republicans given Stalin's atrocities, and resulted in them sometimes fighting themselves. The republicans were too divided and lacking in outside support to prevent Franco's fascist regime, and opposition was violently suppressed from the moment the francoists took power.

Pinochet was not chosen by the people of Chile. He was installed by the US in a coup which ended civilian government in Chile for decades. Pinochet never enjoyed the support of the masses. He was hated for his illegitimacy and his profiteering by privatizing virtually all public services. The US is responsible for his regime, not the people of Chile.

I don't know enough to say for Stroessner or Peron. My South American history is sadly lacking :(


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20 Jul 2020, 5:49 am

Authoritarian governments basically stay in power using the barrel of a gun