Are these protests really a democrat thing?

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ironpony
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13 Jul 2020, 11:28 pm

In the US, the media is making the protests and rioting, out to be a democratic party thing, but is it really? Aren't there a lot of people wanting to protest or even riot, whether they are democrats or republicans, or is the media right and it's more so a democrat affair?



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13 Jul 2020, 11:43 pm

American politics is completely unhinged. Your first guess is the likelier, the truth is in between. Also protest =/= riot. Those aren't the same thing at all. They're not the same people either. There are a lot of violent right wing extremists pinning their crimes on liberals.


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14 Jul 2020, 12:04 am

ironpony wrote:
In the US, the media is making the protests and rioting, out to be a democratic party thing, but is it really? Aren't there a lot of people wanting to protest or even riot, whether they are democrats or republicans, or is the media right and it's more so a democrat affair?


From what I can tell, the protests are predominantly (although not entirely) a Democrat thing.

The rioting, however, seems to be fringe (and criminal) elements, potentially from either end of the political spectrum (although the violence does seem to align with "left" values/desires/targets) using these protests as cover for their own goals.

The problem is that the legitimate protesters seem to do very little to weed out those there for alternative reasons, which leads to the impression that they approve of the rioting\looting, and so placing the "responsibiity" for this onto the protesters, and by association, the Democrats.


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14 Jul 2020, 12:19 am

They just burned a statue of the Virgin Mary in Boston today.


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ironpony
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14 Jul 2020, 12:43 am

Oh okay, but why are mainly the democrats interested in defunding the police compared to republicans. I'm just looking at this as a foreigner mainly, but don't democrats especially extreme left ones, have a more socialist type of view, and therefore they would be in favor of the police, since the police is a more socialist organization in the sense that they are paid for by the people?

The news is also saying that the riots are going in the democratic states though, so if the rioters are just criminals and not part of the democratic movement, then why are they happening in democratic states, if that's true?



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14 Jul 2020, 2:41 am

"defund the police" doesn't mean defund the police. that'll just make worse trained, angrier more ineffective police.

it means get rid of the police.

also "democrat/ic" is a terrible way to categorize the type of people who are out there protesting and pulling down statues. MAYBE (if they vote at all) they will lean towards the democratic party because, on occasion, the democratic politician will throw them a few crumbs, or do a bit of pro-LBGT virtue signaling every june, as opposed to the republican who will do nothing for them and not even give an inch.

that's about it. neither party will actually willingly enact the kind of real reform they're looking for. that's why there are protests...
there is no left party in the US. anywhere else the democrats are center-right.

there is a colossal gap between where MOST establishment dems stand and where these young ones stand

just tryin' to clear that up for the outsiders :skull:


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14 Jul 2020, 4:36 am

Kiprobalhato wrote:
there is no left party in the US. anywhere else the democrats are center-right.

I disagree -- the is no right party left in the US. anywhere else the republicans are center-left (because of the huge budget deficits) -- there are no fiscal conservatives.



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14 Jul 2020, 8:28 am

Many of the BLM protesters are Democrats, but I wouldn't call it a "Democrat thing". Some Republicans support BLM.


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14 Jul 2020, 8:33 am

ironpony wrote:
Are These Protests Really A Democrat Thing?
According to most people involved -- the ones I've communicated with, anyway -- it's more of an "I'm mad as Hell, and I'm not going to take it any more" thing.  Political affiliation is secondary, if it even matters at all.


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usagibryan
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14 Jul 2020, 8:41 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but why are mainly the democrats interested in defunding the police compared to republicans. I'm just looking at this as a foreigner mainly, but don't democrats especially extreme left ones, have a more socialist type of view, and therefore they would be in favor of the police, since the police is a more socialist organization in the sense that they are paid for by the people?

The news is also saying that the riots are going in the democratic states though, so if the rioters are just criminals and not part of the democratic movement, then why are they happening in democratic states, if that's true?


This IMO is a misunderstanding of socialism and leftist politics. Somehow the notion that left-right means more vs less government or that socialism = anything the government does became popularized in the US, which is an oversimplification that only serves to confuse why people have the politics they do. It's not about more government, it's about more government intervention to promote equality, or decrease inequality, and abolition or reform of government that promotes inequality. The bottom line the left cares about is equality, government and policies are just a tool, one that the right has no problem using when it serves their interests too.

Serious leftists and many people who call themselves socialist (although this is changing as "socialist" becomes more mainstream) do not even consider themselves liberals or Democrats, who they see as reinforcing capitalism and the status quo, many are actually anarchists who are against the state, which they define as violent forms of government that reinforce hierarchy. In other words public schools, libraries, healthcare, especially decentralized local services and community organization = good, whereas cops, military, borders, nationalism and prisons = bad.

I recommend the ABC's of Socialism by Jacobin Magazine as a primer.

Kiprobalhato wrote:
"defund the police" doesn't mean defund the police. that'll just make worse trained, angrier more ineffective police.

it means get rid of the police.

also "democrat/ic" is a terrible way to categorize the type of people who are out there protesting and pulling down statues. MAYBE (if they vote at all) they will lean towards the democratic party because, on occasion, the democratic politician will throw them a few crumbs, or do a bit of pro-LBGT virtue signaling every june, as opposed to the republican who will do nothing for them and not even give an inch.

that's about it. neither party will actually willingly enact the kind of real reform they're looking for. that's why there are protests...
there is no left party in the US. anywhere else the democrats are center-right.

there is a colossal gap between where MOST establishment dems stand and where these young ones stand

just tryin' to clear that up for the outsiders :skull:


We need to find a way to get rid of the two party system, I really wish we had a proportional representation system or instant run-off voting.

Steve1963 wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
there is no left party in the US. anywhere else the democrats are center-right.

I disagree -- the is no right party left in the US. anywhere else the republicans are center-left (because of the huge budget deficits) -- there are no fiscal conservatives.


I think this is a bad interpretation of left-right, just because republicans are fiscally irresponsible doesn't meant they aren't right-wing, or aren't capitalists, etc. I think culture and ideology is more important. From what I understand conservatives in the U.S. are considered more extreme or more far to the right than conservatives in Europe.



Last edited by usagibryan on 14 Jul 2020, 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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14 Jul 2020, 8:45 am

ironpony wrote:
Are These Protests Really A Democrat Thing?

I think it's more the other way around: the Democrats are actively trying to gain support of the protesters - as opposed to protests being actively supported by the Democats.
I think the protests are first in this "chicken or egg" problem.


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Mr Reynholm
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14 Jul 2020, 8:51 am

The riots, looting and destruction of property are part of a communist uprising here in America. This isn't about race, but about bringing down the current system of government in the U.S. Go to BLMs home page and read their mission statement and goals.



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14 Jul 2020, 8:58 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Go to BLMs home page and read their mission statement and goals.

I did.
Quote:
#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.

We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.

We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.

We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Could you please bold out where they call for a communist uprising and bringing down the current US gov system?


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14 Jul 2020, 9:01 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
The riots, looting and destruction of property are part of a communist uprising here in America.
Evidence, please?
Mr Reynholm wrote:
This isn't about race
Evidence, please?
Mr Reynholm wrote:
but about bringing down the current system of government in the U.S.
Evidence, please?
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Go to BLMs home page and read their mission statement and goals.
I have, and you are wrong.  Go back to school.


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usagibryan
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14 Jul 2020, 9:18 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
The riots, looting and destruction of property are part of a communist uprising here in America. This isn't about race, but about bringing down the current system of government in the U.S. Go to BLMs home page and read their mission statement and goals.


How do you define communism?



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14 Jul 2020, 11:09 am

Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
The riots, looting and destruction of property are part of a communist uprising here in America.
Evidence, please?
Mr Reynholm wrote:
This isn't about race
Evidence, please?
Mr Reynholm wrote:
but about bringing down the current system of government in the U.S.
Evidence, please?
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Go to BLMs home page and read their mission statement and goals.
I have, and you are wrong.  Go back to school.
BLM:
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

Washington Times;
Ms. Pat Cullors is unapologetic in describing Black Lives Matter founders as “trained Marxists,”