Question for leftists: Do you find it hard to be a leftist?

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Or progressive, whatever word is appropriate. I have a hard time figuring out what labels to use when discussing political orientation.

I prefer leftist ideology because I find it more accepting, pro-LGBT, concerned with equality and improving quality of life. I like tweets that explain things that you might not have realized are problems for deaf people and here's what we can do about it, etc. I want to live in a society as morally advanced as Star Trek TNG. But I have a really hard time talking to people on the left, there is a lot of gatekeeping, it's like you are expected to know everything, if you say something that is wrong or offensive it's open season on you, ignorance is not a defense. It feels like our culture is changing really fast too, which is good, but it's hard to keep up. Asking for explanations is considered emotional labor. If you ask why something is offensive or what the right thing to say is your intentions are questioned and you are considered a concern troll. I already have a complex about people not liking me and I'm always worried about offending people or saying the wrong thing, it's like 100x worse in leftist circles, I don't feel comfortable or accepted in the company of the political movement I align with. It's better than fascists but still.

I sympathize with your plight - I actually grew up being *very* conservative, like my parents, and over time developed into being much more left leaning and embodying more leftist ideologies. I like your TNG reference - it really does set the foundation for my own beliefs to! I always think about the sort of optimistic view that Star Trek takes of the future.

Regarding the rest of your post, I do agree with the concern that 'keeping up' is very difficult. I'm not very old (as my descriptor should betray) but even in my lifetime social and cultural conscious has shifted so dramatically that it's almost dizzying; what was once considered popular and funny is now extremely offensive (I don't personally mind the re-evaluation of comedy, only saying I do find it baffling that something that people liked when I was a child is now remarked on with 'how did they every get by with this???'). I believe in a sort of 'do no harm' philosophy, but also acknowledge the importance of caring about issues that may not impact me or even immediately make sense to me. I have found it's best to listen to others when they express their concerns with culture and such. However, to get back to the point, I do find it very draining to meet the immense amount of standards set (which seem to be added to every day). I.e., you're not doing enough if you don't do x, y, and z, which leads me to feel super anxious because I start to internalize that, even if not every single person preaching whatever ideology is right. It's hard to tell.

Even though I do care about current events, I had to disengage a lot with social media because it can be a bombardment of emotional, angry posts from all angles. I struggled even with this decision (to leave SM) because to me it felt like I was not caring enough, that I was guilty of complacency, but it is difficult to keep up with. For instance, I have a complicated emotional relationship with my parents, and currently depend on being able to live with them. Because of my anxiety (and certain autistic social traits) it also benefits me to have a good relationship with my parents, to preserve a peaceful living situation. However, my parents are *extremely* conservative, even bordering into far right in certain issues. If I listened to what everyone in leftist spaces says, I'm being a horrible person by not constantly fighting them and cutting them right out of my life. The fact is, I just can't. But because I internalized how frequently people would insist on this (cutting off 'problematic' family members) I had intense, debilitating anxiety for an entire week where I couldn't function.

Sigh - sorry for commandeering your post by way of turning it into a vent session I guess I just wanted to express that, yes, I too am a left-leaning person (not quite sure if I deserve to call myself a 'leftist' since I'm more prone to considering things from multiple sides, which is also a 'no-no' in current left online culture). But - sorry for veering off track - I am also a 'progressive' who has difficulty feeling like I 'fit into' the movement.

As for any help/advice I can offer - I do think that the more you are able to distance yourself from more insular, angry internet communities, the more you might realize that it's not *all* a s***-slinging, un-empathetic world. IDK - I personally was attracted to WP because I could at least watch people have *conversations* which I literally never see on twitter/tumblr/FB etc (it's always 'shut up fasc/bootlicker/lib/commie; blocked!'). Best of luck to you!

I see your problem for what language to use. I would describe TNG as both liberal and progressive. But both words have been corrupted, especially in an American sense. A new ideology has swept in, and labels itself as these things, but it really, really isn't. These words, and many others, like racism, fascism and diversity have all been twisted by them. Leftist I would say is like the word islamist vs muslim. The islamist seeks to spread their ideology by any means necessary, so does the leftist. They're both extremists. You should run away from these people, not run after them.

TNG, and for that matter the World your avatar lives in, I think are morally very strong. I've never seen any show come close to the understanding MHA has of what the essence of heroism is. Think about how would these characters behave and then look at these leftists. You'll see the truth.

I know what you mean.

I personally consider myself:

- centre-right economically (I.e. generally preferring market-based solutions)

- socially progressive, and above all

- socially liberal

This is by no means a unique set of beliefs, but it does mean I have to pick my spaces carefully. Progressive circles often tend to be leftist, and aren’t necessarily socially liberal. It’s usually only a matter of time before someone is overly critical of capitalism, or suggests banning anonymous internet usage or harsher sentencing, at which point I’ll be told to go and read Preudhomme or Bakunin and cast as the bad guy.

Having said that, right-wing spaces that don’t make a point of actively maintaining their social liberalism and progressivism often become infested with social conservatism. Initially that might just be someone who is a little sheltered and hasn’t “got it” yet, and I think that’s fine. But then you get people who are outright nasty, bigoted, and committed reactionaries who are just plain unpleasant to be around - edgelord teenagers, mostly. As a rule, sensible centre-right folks don’t tend to spend huge amounts of time on the internet, whereas edgelords do, and that can make right wing spaces very uncompromising.

There are nice communities out there that don’t demand lock-step ideological conformity while also not being full of monkeys throwing poop at each other. But you’ve got to search pretty hard for them.

I don't see myself as a leftist because every leftist I have seen all seem to be very delusional and have unrealistic views of the world. HAES is an example of leftism and also the Zer pronoun stuff and thinking everyone should introduce themselves and then say their pronouns ("Hi I am league Girl and my pronouns are she and her") or thinking we should let a kid decide what their gender is at birth than assigning it to them when in fact 99.99999% of the time the assigned gender will be correct. Then they call you a bigot if you disagree with their mindset.

Liberals are tolerant of differences and LGBT and gay marriages but they are not so delusional.

Yes I do. It's inbuilt into people to be reactionary and it takes work to be better than this. Sometimes my first reaction is a reactionary one, so I take time to be offline and sit with my feelings before going back to something & venting without the slurs or bigotry. Or understanding why something is the case, like if someone doesn't listen maybe they're Deaf and can't hear me?

I imagine people think I'm an annoying gate keeping SJW but I don't hold anyone to different standards to those I hold to myself.

Oh and it's perfectly feasible to introduce pronouns, just do it along with names, that's what me and my friends do irl. I find that just like names people don't get angry if you slip up unless it's intentional.

Well, I do identify as Leftist, or at least progressive, I think going by progressive is more accurate. It is pretty easy to not understand different topics, I spend a lot of time watching people on the Left, the type of people that somehow got the title "Breadtube": Contrapoints, Philosophy Tube, hbomberguy, Shaun, Thought Slime, Vaush, Three Arrows, Some More News, Creationist Cat, The Serfs, Xanderhal, and so on. The discourse can change quite a bit if you are not keeping with someone.

I think that the unfortunate thing you mentioned usagibryan about it being difficult to get answers from people is the after effects of a movement that was along the lines of saying that saying that no one requires an explanation for being who they are or their experiences, such as many minorities being expected to inform those outside to their experience. I would like to think that is starting to change now from an understanding that it does nothing to help people become informed, or even discuss if progressives are at a good place. A lot of the channels I mentioned above do pretty long form videos that really go into subjects. If there is a topic you are curious about, if I cannot explain it myself I might be able to point to a couple different videos that might give some context.

The Left is not one whole hegemony either, people can have conflicting ideas in different contexts that might take watching a couple of people talk on the subject to get a wide view, which can occasionally create conflict in regards to people who can't take a little nuance or get a tad yikes. I think that an important element is to always be accepting to people improving, never gatekeep on points of view people might have held before. There are still wokescolds out there, who take it a bit too far in attacking those with opinions too far. I have watched my fair share of criticisms too where someone I liked had to take criticisms and explain that changes may be made via thinking about if something is appropriate.

I don't know if to say that it is hard, but I know that in justifying your beliefs can require going through a lot of stuff that can be hard to read, whether understanding something complex, or needing to debunk something that might border on hateful. I have not taken much pleasure on finding out one of my favourite authors, J.K. Rowling, can be super wrong on the topic of trans people, and at this point I think that I have watched dozens of videos from different kinds of people explaining their own reactions and what they take away from her words. I would not want to take away only one person's experience.

I identify as economically left, because I think Marx's and Lenin's critique of capitalism is fundamentally correct.

I see "social progressivism" as the capital-friendly substitute for, and diversion from, progress towards a TNG-world. Zuckerberg and Apple are all LGBTQ friendly, but I really would like to talk about taxing billionaires instead.

And I do feel it's hard some time that I still have to state the obvious: that the economic order is sick and perverted and structured to benefit a tiny number of people whose individual wealth can be compared only to nation states, while billions of people live lives in filth and pollution, deemed expendable by them.

I find it rather hard to be a centrist sometimes

I guess that I would be slightly left of center.

If your question is "do I find it difficult to mind my p's and q's about speaking politically correctly among folks of my own political persuasion?" the answer is no. At least not when it comes to race and ethnicity. Its not hard for me to avoid using the N word. I am a geography geek so I dont ignorantly lump differing nationalities together like some folks do. Like I dont call Latin American people "Spanish" because I am aware that Spain is a country in Europe, and is not located in any of the "Americas". Maybe among young folks who are more woke than I am maybe there are more rules. But among my crowd I dont run afoul. In fact online I get more flak from peckerwoods THINKING I am woke or pc when not even being that. Lol!

However with LBGTQ issues it can be a bit mentally taxing on me to comprehend some of it. Like you see a thread on WP that says "women dont accept trans women as real women", and you feel you have to take sides, between folks of a gender (but not your gender) and folks who have had operations to change from your gender to the other gender...I rather just not think about it at all.

Economically left of centre and quite liberal on my social views

I get what you mean on this, but I find that in this day and age of fierce political arguments (online mostly) and digging in to support a 'team' people have forgotten that it is 100% ok to just say 'I don't know'. It can feel quite liberating to offer that as an answer to a complex conundrum tbh

There is no need for us cisgender older people to take sides. We grew up in a world where it was just assumed there were two genders. Second-wave feminism was challenging assumed gender traits but that there were two genders was assumed. This assumption only began to change in the mainstream within the last 5 to 10 years when we were in our well into adulthood. We can google the pronouns, read Wikipedia articles about the controversies but most of us will never truly "get it".

What we as extremely late-diagnosed autistics can "get" is that something can be always there and completely not known about. We do understand the pain of reading and being told our "wiring" is a made-up disease because "there was no autism when I grew up". On the other hand, we have seen a lot of things that seemed like a permanent radical change at the time that turned out to be fads. We can see both sides without having to take sides.

This particular attempt at radical social change comes with very personal issues of identity and privacy that conflict. It is not us that initiated this radical change and it is not us that is going to have to solve these issues.

What we can do is advocate against bullying and harm against the people involved and wish them well in their attempt at radical social change.

Right, I think this is what they call cancel culture. I think it's important to acknowledge that in retrospect certain movies for example are problematic (like the transphobic scene from Ace Ventura) but it's like now I have to pretend I never liked the movie.



Yes! This is baffling to me, I can't just "cut people out of my life" because they are Trump supporters, they are still family. It's an unrealistic expectation of people. I just choose not to talk politics with them.




Please don't apologize for sharing your opinion, and I've done nothing but vent and word vomit since I've joined this forum, lol.



IMO the very idea that considering multiple sides of an idea makes you a "bad leftist" or bad progressive is a problem. I think Trump has made everyone angry and polarized and we're at the point now where people are ready to tar and feather you for even the slightest hint of playing devil's advocate.



True, it's possible this is just an issue of toxic internet communities, I may be too online.



Are you trying to differentiate from the more aggressive incarnation of the left that has become more popular over the years from traditional liberals? It seems like there is a growing split in the Democratic party between the socialist Bernie camp and the moderate Biden camp, but I don't think it's so clear cut, and I've noticed there is now a tenancy to use the word liberal in contrast to leftist, like liberals are right-wing or something. Perhaps I shouldn't have used leftist, I like pragmatism and I'm not looking to end capitalism tomorrow, but I'm more of a Bernie guy and my views and the spaces I gravitate toward are that of what you might call an SJW, my problem really is with the unforgiving pitchfork mentality.



I prefer to judge people by their ideal society, how to get there is another matter. I like MHA because it's incredibly positive and wholesome, and I like TNG because it's a culture that values scientific discovery, diplomacy, and diversity, which IMO are leftist values, it's just these online spaces have been vitriolic and purist lately. If a character in Star Trek came on the bridge and was uncomfortable with Worf there because they had the mistaken idea Klingons were all violent, I imagine the other characters on the show would try to show them the error of their ways. If the Enterprise has the culture of leftbook that approach would be considered naive, you'd be ruthlessly roasted for suggesting it, if you have outdated or ignorant views on Klingons you are considered irredeemable and it's no one's job to educate you, etc.



Would you consider yourself a libertarian? Do you think you'd be at home in a European liberal party?



You have good taste in YouTube content. Contrapoints is actually a good example of what I'm talking about, she's smart and eloquent and IMO has had nothing but a positive affect on political discourse, she even has a reputation for deradicalizing incels and fascists. But lately, idk if this is new but no matter what she gets crucified by Twitter no matter what she says. Every video she puts out everyone is ready to "cancel" Contrapoints. If you are ready to denounce someone who is possibly the best speaker for your movement out there for the 1% of things she says you take issue with wtf are you even trying to do?



I agree that people shouldn't have to constantly prove that their identity is valid to other people, I can imagine that is exhausting. My complaint is more along the lines of being accused of being a horrible person (or a Republican) because you said something that was incorrect, which again can be a matter of perspective because like you said the left is not a hegemony and there is a diversity of opinion on a lot of things (I don't even want to get into debates like bi vs pan, the split attraction model, are ace people part of the LGBT community, etc). I want to believe people and accept people and take their word for it, everyone's experience is valid, but it seems like everyone is starting from a place of "you should have done your research and if you did you'd agree with me and now it's time to bully you". That kind of ire should only be reserved for people who are openly hateful or double down on their mistaken prejudices even after it's been pointed out to them. I agree with pretty much everything else you said so I'm not going to quote it here.



I remember hearing someone say while economic issues and cultural issues are both important, economic issues should take priority first (not that we can't work on both) because it's hard for people to protest when they're starving and demoralized. I'm not sure where I fit in ideology wise, I'm not an Obama/Biden liberal but I'm not a Marxist either, I'm sort of a gradualist, I voted for Bernie, idk what the best system to replace the current one is with I just want to move in a better direction and whatever means to do that is most reasonable is what we should do.



Same, it's actually kind of daunting because I remember when people were still debating about same-sex marriage and I felt very alone on having pro-gay and anti traditional gender role views among my peers in school. I'm both amazed and delighted that the world is much more accepting now and so much social progress has been made, I still find it hard to believe sometimes, but now I feel like the one who is out of date. I legit do not understand certain concepts like gender being a spectrum or demisexuality. I'll never tell people who identify as such that they aren't valid, I'll fully accept and befriend anyone who does, but I'm terrified of speaking on it at all for fear of getting it wrong, using the wrong terminology, etc. I've messed up with pronouns before unfortunately.

Last edited by usagibryan on 17 Jul 2020, 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You know what I think this is what it comes down to, sometimes I just want to feel like I can say "I don't know", it's mentally taxing to be expected to be woke about everything.

Those are the radical wokescolds, somehow mistaking Natalie as a truscum (anti-non-binary), it is rather unfortunate that they did seem to have affect on her mental health. She is not immune to criticism, but the criticism mostly levied at her is unjustified and I don't think she should be deified either. Best not to give too much power to the ones who would try and cancel one of the online Left's best content creators.




I would like to believe that people can be patient with each other if they say that they are just not researched in that area, that they can maybe give pointers to their point of view. I know how frustrating it can be from the side of discussing with people that seem to form on the side of protecting the person with transphobic views, and not even seeing something as dangerous, and I don't think that I am really good at finding the convincing sources.

I know you said that you did not want to get into such debates, but I still can't figure out or wrap my head around the difference of bi and pan, I will just have to accept that pan people have a different experience. I am mostly only hearing about the split attraction model right now from you, but it seems to be regards to how one's sexuality and romanticism can be separate, like ace people can still have romantic feelings, which I have heard people talk about existing, so I will believe it. And of course Ace people are part of the LGBT community.




Things have moved quite a bit, and makes me wonder how I might have been in school if I did not have all this repression. Like, I was curious in high school about gender being a spectrum, but only fairly recently realized that I am non-binary, and was only after watching ContraPoints that I started to realize that there was a space for how I felt. God forbid if I actually know where on that spectrum I am other than pointing to the middle. Really weird having gone from anti-traditional gender roles, to thinking maybe someone's preferences can be evidence of someone's gender, but also not always.

Maybe I have avoided the saying the wrong thing due to be so much of a reclusive introvert. I still don't understand the proper way of bringing up things like pronouns.