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thinkinginpictures
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16 Aug 2020, 3:18 pm

I hate these threads concerning UBI, not because of UBI itself but because opponents of UBI won't take a listen to the arguments in favor. They don't even take their time to read the arguments, they just throw about all sorts of accusations against proponents of UBI for being "lazy slackers who only wants to leech on society".

Now I starting this thread with this opening, in hope that we can have decent discussion about this topic.

I am a big fan of the UBI idea, because UBI is an unconditional* income, which means recipients are not reduced to social clients who have to beg society for getting food on the table or a roof over their head or a bed to sleep in.

First some facts - and please take your time to understand these facts:

In modern welfare states - UK, US, Belgium, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland - you name them all - social benefits comes in three main cathegories: Unemployment benefits, sick/disability benefits and Retirement/Old Age Pensions.

Unemployment benefits are always conditioned upon that the recipient takes any job available and also do some work in return for the benefit - or else the benefit are being cut - ultimately you get no money at all.

Sick/disability benefits are always conditioned upon that the recipient is too sick/disabled to work full time and it is often required of the recipient to be re-assessed again and again to see whether they are still eligible for the benefits.
It is also very often required of them to work as much they can - like with unemployment benefits.

While we have heard all the usual sayings of the so-called "fairness" into "work in return for benefits is always a good idea" that we should "expect something in return for our tax money" etc. what about the fact that unemployment-work is equivalent to wage dumping, in that unemployed labor is simply cheap labor? That's almost the same as slavery, had it not been for the fact that slaves could be whipped and executed for not doing work. We're not here yet, but who knows what comes next?

Work-conditioned unemployment benefits has a tendency to scare ordinary workers to comply with their employers.
That's why there is such a strong need for labor unions, to keep the employers in check.

Sick/disability benefits requires not only medical exams. Actually, despite the fact that medical examiners tell the state/municipality/whoever are responsible for the benefits, that the recipient cannot work, they refuse to listen to the doctors, regardless of how many or how well-documented the cases are.

The re-assessments are also very stressful, which is very, VERY harmful for not only the mental but also physical health of the recipients. You never know what you might be subject to and a lot of those on disability benefits being re-assessed say that is equivalent to torture.

UBI - Universal Basic Income - is a way to get away from these situations.
Securing workers rights through a total re-invention of the entire labor system, by abolishing "social clients" to give them the same universal rights as with Old Age Pensions secured by the state - just with the fact that UBI can be given to anyone above the age of 18.

Imagine a situation like this: An employee is unsatisfied with his boss. He tells him he'd like better more healthy working conditions or better wages. His boss tells him, he can f**k off. In todays world, the employee has little to no choice what-so-ever, but with UBI a whole new life is offered to him: He can accept 3/4 of his original low salary, but he is never obliged to work for them. He can start his own business, creating a competition against his former employer. Or he can find someone else who'd like to hire him under better conditions. The possibilities are endless.

UBI doesn't have to be fixed. Many people assume that UBI is - say - 1500 EUR/month regardless of whether you earn money or not. But it doesn't have to be like that.

It could be that you have an extra income, which reduces the monthly UBI by 30 EUR for every 100 EUR earned. It could be that if you earn money by working, your reduction is smaller, than if you inherit the money - and so on.

Again, if you're genuinly sick/disabled, you can still apply for some additional disability benefit, and if you fail to meet the requirements, you still have some money to live for, afterall.

Now - the big issue is always: HOW TO PAY FOR IT?

I't simple: You take all the collected expenditures on all the current social benefits including all the expenses on asessments and re-assessments, administration and bureaucracy involved in all of this, and call all these expenses "X EUR/year".

You now abolish all of that. You've now saved the government X EUR/year.
You use this very same amount of money on the new UBI system.
--


I believe UBI creates a much better society. The UBI is still low enough to secure labor, but high enough to guarantee better health. And indeed, UBI research has shown that UBI-recipients do have a better health and increase employment:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... ell-being/

Quote:
“I think it would bring people security in very insecure situations when they don’t know whether they’re going to have an income,” she said.

The findings suggest that basic income doesn’t seem to provide a disincentive for people to work.



* UBI being unconditional just means that you are not expected to work or be sick or have reached a certain age (except for the 18 years of age) to apply for UBI.

Whether or not legal penalties, foreigners etc. can/cannot apply for UBI is an entirely different thing for that matter.



Starlight2001
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16 Aug 2020, 3:36 pm

I love seeing that other people understand this. UBI or something like it is necessary due to increasing automation. it's not easy to get a job these days and you shouldn't need to have one to live. Everyone deserves access to basic human needs.



AuroraBorealisGazer
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16 Aug 2020, 3:52 pm

Good job on putting this together Thinkinginpictures. I believe it's important for us to explore/consider all options when striving to improve society.

So far no country has a UBI. Some places have done trials on a small scale. Source

Finland ran a 2 year trial (Source), but so far their politicians are still wary of a national UBI. While more counties have begun running trials now that they see the economic devastation that the pandemic has caused, it may be awhile before any country moves forward to implementing UBI nationally.

For countries like the US that have been unable to agree to having universal healthcare, I'm afraid a UBI system is a long way off.

I would expect a few pioneering countries (such as Scandinavian counties) to run it successfully for a while before it gains favor.

I would be curious to see how it would work at a national scale. My worry is that in counties like the US, housing costs (among other things) would rise to keep people only making the UBI amount it slightly above out.



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16 Aug 2020, 5:04 pm

I think UBI is a bad idea IMHO. What will be the incentive to better oneself or work at all if they are guaranteed an income? I spent several years in the Navy. In the military you get paid the same if you work 168 hours a week or zero hours. When people get paid no matter the time or quality of the work, they take the easiest route. That does not lead to better quality of service or products. Its not an attack on any group of people, its just human nature. People have to have some incentive to strive to do better.



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16 Aug 2020, 5:17 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
What will be the incentive to better oneself or work at all if they are guaranteed an income?


The benefits of being rich?



AuroraBorealisGazer
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16 Aug 2020, 5:28 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
I think UBI is a bad idea IMHO. What will be the incentive to better oneself or work at all if they are guaranteed an income? I spent several years in the Navy. In the military you get paid the same if you work 168 hours a week or zero hours. When people get paid no matter the time or quality of the work, they take the easiest route. That does not lead to better quality of service or products. Its not an attack on any group of people, its just human nature. People have to have some incentive to strive to do better.


In Star Trek the Federation eliminated currency. The philosophy behind it was that beings would work to better themselves. So for instance, a person may study physics and conduct research because they enjoy it and/or want to contribute. I'm not sure how this would play out in our current century, but it may take hold. Obviously Star Trek isn't real life, and it's set in a more enlightened time period, but I wonder if it could one day work like that here.

While I don't have a high opinion of humanity, I do think that over time many people would become bored just sitting around with no purpose in life.

That said I don't believe we as a society are at that level yet, at least not in many countries.



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16 Aug 2020, 5:34 pm

It was the main issue in Andrew Yang's presidential campaign.


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16 Aug 2020, 5:56 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
While I don't have a high opinion of humanity, I do think that over time many people would become bored just sitting around with no purpose in life.


At one extreme, a certain section of people would likely do something productive, but it would be more of a "hobby" than a real effort, as there would be nothing to drive the person to excel, nor to direct their efforts (along with others) towards a given goal.

On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...



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16 Aug 2020, 6:04 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
I think UBI is a bad idea IMHO. What will be the incentive to better oneself or work at all if they are guaranteed an income? I spent several years in the Navy. In the military you get paid the same if you work 168 hours a week or zero hours. When people get paid no matter the time or quality of the work, they take the easiest route. That does not lead to better quality of service or products. Its not an attack on any group of people, its just human nature. People have to have some incentive to strive to do better.


It is a valid question. But why do you think the only incentive is income? People volunteer. Jobs can have inherent rewards--getting work in the arts or international affairs does not pay well, but people apply for those positions. I certainly have never taken the easiest route when on salary. Wealthy people work even though they have enough wealth where working is not very effective in adding to that--their investments is where they earn money, not their work. And that is the problem with some economic models that use that idea people are lazy is they don't reflect actual behavior. In policy, it is the rational agent model, which has more or less been disproven, does not predict people work in their own self interest, but have a complex behavior that is more complex than simply about getting money. Unfortunately, in the US especially, the idea that poor people are poor is because they are lazy is a pernicious myth--poor people are poor because the system does not pay them what they are worth. And the data shows that while productivity has risen since the 1980s, wages have at best stagnated or declined. If people are more productive, why don't they get more money?

But there have been UBI studies and they showed that people do actually try to improve themselves under UBI. Because their basic needs are taken care of, they have the time and resources to invest in themselves.

There are other benefits where it becomes more efficient as a safety net as the administration is so much easier--you don't have to figure out eligibility, for example. And then when something like a pandemic hits, you have support in place for workers. It not only protects them, but other parts of the economy as they still have buying power and can afford their housing.



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16 Aug 2020, 6:04 pm

Brictoria wrote:
At one extreme, a certain section of people would likely do something productive, but it would be more of a "hobby" than a real effort, as there would be nothing to drive the person to excel, nor to direct their efforts (along with others) towards a given goal.


The desire for Prestige/fame? Leadership/power? Civic duty?



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16 Aug 2020, 6:13 pm

Brictoria wrote:
On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Protest policy brutality and social injustice? Well, that is democracy and ironically a result of inequity in the current economic system. And to be clear, the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and the Federal and police response was extreme in Portland.



Last edited by Jiheisho on 16 Aug 2020, 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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16 Aug 2020, 6:39 pm

Brictoria wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
While I don't have a high opinion of humanity, I do think that over time many people would become bored just sitting around with no purpose in life.


At one extreme, a certain section of people would likely do something productive, but it would be more of a "hobby" than a real effort, as there would be nothing to drive the person to excel, nor to direct their efforts (along with others) towards a given goal.

On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Are you saying that protesting, a fundamental right, in a fight for the right of minorities to not be brutalized by cops, is some sort of delinquent act caused by boredom? Do you believe that the people of Belarus and Hong Kong are also just bored and decided, "hey I know why don't I get a bunch of other citizens of all walks of life to risk their safety day after day?"

Perhaps you've fallen victim to the fear mongering perpetuated by politicians and the major media outlets. Please consider that there is a lot going on that you aren't aware of. There are dozens of independent journalists filming and reporting on the protests every night.

I would encourage you to watch the footage and see what is actually happening in Portland. A lot of the videos are uneventful; people walking and singing, volunteers handing out food, etc. There are also many displays of unprovoked attacks from cops wearing full body armor on people simply walking. I would be happy to provide you with links if you would like.



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16 Aug 2020, 6:59 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Protest policy brutality and social injustice? Well, that is democracy and ironically a result of inequity in the current economic system. And to be clear, the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and the Federal and police response was extreme in Portland.


It wasn't the peaceful protesters that I was referring to...

Somewhat disingeneous to claim that the riots were due to the Federal responce when they only arrived after a couple of months of riots and the riots continued even after they had left, as far as I can tell from the information online.



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16 Aug 2020, 7:08 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Protest policy brutality and social injustice? Well, that is democracy and ironically a result of inequity in the current economic system. And to be clear, the vast majority of the protesters were peaceful and the Federal and police response was extreme in Portland.


It wasn't the peaceful protesters that I was referring to...

Somewhat disingeneous to claim that the riots were due to the Federal responce when they only arrived after a couple of months of riots and the riots continued even after they had left, as far as I can tell from the information online.


You were taking the behavior of a small minority to try to make the claim that people on UBI would turn violent. If you were honest, you would include those that were peaceful. You just used a stereotype that has not much basis in anything.

The Federal response aggravated the situation. Also, there were no riots. At least if you are not just looking at right-wing propaganda. The violence was sporadic and does not represent the protests.



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16 Aug 2020, 7:33 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
While I don't have a high opinion of humanity, I do think that over time many people would become bored just sitting around with no purpose in life.


At one extreme, a certain section of people would likely do something productive, but it would be more of a "hobby" than a real effort, as there would be nothing to drive the person to excel, nor to direct their efforts (along with others) towards a given goal.

On the other extreme, I believe in many cities in the U.S.A. at night (Portland, for example) you can see what another subset of people will likely end up doing, having been sitting around with no purpose or jobs since their city/state has been shut down...


Are you saying that protesting, a fundamental right, in a fight for the right of minorities to not be brutalized by cops, is some sort of delinquent act caused by boredom? Do you believe that the people of Belarus and Hong Kong are also just bored and decided, "hey I know why don't I get a bunch of other citizens of all walks of life to risk their safety day after day?"

Perhaps you've fallen victim to the fear mongering perpetuated by politicians and the major media outlets. Please consider that there is a lot going on that you aren't aware of. There are dozens of independent journalists filming and reporting on the protests every night.

I would encourage you to watch the footage and see what is actually happening in Portland. A lot of the videos are uneventful; people walking and singing, volunteers handing out food, etc. There are also many displays of unprovoked attacks from cops wearing full body armor on people simply walking. I would be happy to provide you with links if you would like.


There is nothing wrong with peacefully protesting...The issue is when others use the protest as cover for other actions which are not related to the protest.

Unfortunately, in the same way that the right are often accused of being "White supremecists" by the left due to a small subset of that side of politics who the majority disavow support of, the left and the protests are similarly tarred with the "rioters" tag because of the actions of a small group "participating", but which the left and majority of protesters have NOT disavowed or tried to stop (and in at least one case, where organisers have "justified" looting).



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16 Aug 2020, 7:34 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

You were taking the behavior of a small minority to try to make the claim that people on UBI would turn violent. If you were honest, you would include those that were peaceful. You just used a stereotype that has not much basis in anything.

The Federal response aggravated the situation. Also, there were no riots. At least if you are not just looking at right-wing propaganda. The violence was sporadic and does not represent the protests.


Well said Jiheisho