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KT67
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01 Sep 2020, 12:25 pm

I'm an atheist so I don't really have a 'dog in the fight' and I don't want to stir things up (good luck on here) but...

What is the real difference between an icon and an idol?

When I was growing up, we were told that the difference was that people worshipped idols. Nobody worships icons. They use them either to point their way to worship of God or to admiration of those who were saints, and therefore holy in their worship of God (so like a good example).

But surely it's not true that someone worships an idol?

Surely it's more like they use the idol to point their way towards worshipping one of their gods?

I don't see how that needs to be a separate commandment.

Do people really worship stone gods rather than seeing the stone as a representation? Is it like the Christian mass? Where bread and wine becomes blood and body - does the stone statue become a god when worshipped?

Why do some people think it's morally ok to have help in worship from an icon but not to use an idol in worship?



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01 Sep 2020, 12:34 pm

I assume you mean in the religious sense of both words.

An icon is an image; usually a representation or picture of a sacred or sanctified Christian personage, traditionally used and venerated in the Eastern Church.

Image

A Byzantine Icon of The Christ

 
 
An idol is an image used as an object of worship; a false god.

Image

A "Golden Calf"


So basically, an icon is an image that represents something else, whereas an idol is itself worshiped as if a god.


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KT67
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01 Sep 2020, 12:52 pm

Yeah that's what I mean.

I always learned that but I find it hard to get my head around people (maybe when the Bible was written less so?) actually worshipping an icon?

Surely it's more that they use it like Christians do an icon, but to point towards a god who Christians would consider false? Like Vishnu etc.



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01 Sep 2020, 1:12 pm

Reformed Christians would agree with your logic here. They do not permit icons, holding that they are idolatrous. As you observed, there is a connection with the mass as well; the Reformed do not hold that the communion bread and wine turn into the actual, physical body and blood of Christ. These were major points of contention in the Reformation.


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aghogday
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01 Sep 2020, 1:18 pm



According to 'the Story' At Least, 'Buddha'; At Least, the Folks
Who Wrote That Story, Never Wanted The Form of His Image
Venerated in Any Way As He Was More Concerned that Folks
Heard the Essence of His Teachings;

Sadly, That Message has
Been Lost with the;
Teachings of Jesus
As You Hear in 'the Name
of Jesus' That Is Just an Idol
And an Icon of Story to Worship;
Where Name Becomes Idol/Icon Worship indeed...

'God Beyond Names'...

This is what the Original
Meaning of the Ten Commandments,
1st Commandment of Vain in Worship of Form is;
Losing Essence of Love; Sadly, Both in Feeling And Action too...

Where it's all About 'In The Name of Jesus, Now;
Ironically, When that wasn't That Dude Who
Died on A Cross's Name at all; as that originally refers to A Name of 'Yeshua'...

It's Like the Folks Who Believe That Jesus is a White English Speaking
Dude who Looks a Lot Like me; when i had a Beard; and

Not a little Syrian looking Brown Dude...

People are Very Shallow, indeed;

It wouldn't Matter What Yeshua has
to Say; if he could Return over the
Mexican Border; the Word from the
Panhandle With Trump Would Be Heard
As Two Heard already Before; 'Shoot Him'...

Just the Newer Brand
Way of Crucifixion,
In Shorter Terms
of Getting
The Killing
of Love Done Again...

Hey; i visit the Catholic Church;
The Idol and Icon Worship of the
Name 'JeSuS'; as Remember Sculptures
Come in Terms of Letters Written on Pages
As Visual Images; Yes, the Idol and Icon Worship
of the Form of the Sculptured Word Jesus is Much
More Prevalent in Southern Baptist Churches; i've even
Seen Shirts the Children Wear that even Say, It's Not about
me It's about 'JeSuS', the Word; in the Name of the Idol and Icon only Now;

So ironic;
Folks miss
the Fact
That Words
Are Only Forms;
Yes, Idols and
Icons away from
The Essence of Nature
Whatever You Wanna Name our Naked Truths in Light...
Love That Never Requires Worship; Never Fears Criticism;
Is all About Giving, Sharing, And Caring For all of Nature with Least Harm

is the
Essence
oF A Message
For me; but it doesn't
Matter What Form it comes again in
As Long As Essence Truly Breathes as
LoVE iN Us to actually Do Love For Real...

Not Seeing this in Church;
IN FACT SEEING WORSHIP OF
A FATHER OF ALL LIES NOW TRUMP;
replacing anything associated with Love...

It's really Quite Fascinating to me;
Really Great Dark Muse for Writing
Poetry Free Verse; the way a Court Jester
Or an Indian Sacred Clown might do in the Disgusting Face of Hypocrisy...

Meh; Whenever Folks practice a Teaching of a Mentor; The Mentor Breathes again..

When Ever A Child Loves Someone Even After the Parent Dies; The Love of the Parent
For the Child Breathes on; In this Way Love is Eternal Now and This Love CarrieS oN After Death

As the
Nature
of Love Does;
Some folks are
so Greedy they want
more; and end up with No Love at All;
Just a Concrete Word to Hold in the Name of 'Jesus';

i highly doubt
he would want
anything to do
with that name;
if he was indeed Love Now...

At least the Way, Overall, We See it practiced in Effect in the United States now...

He'd Probably say, "Just call me Love"; Better Yet, Just Do it; even a Shoe Company
Understands A Nike Goddess of Victory... Or maybe He would come back (if he could) as a 'Gigolo' giving
Up on Humans All Together; And Doing the all Natural Job of a Male Bonobo, Furry, Warm, Where all 'You Need is Love'....


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vermontsavant
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01 Sep 2020, 1:24 pm

A strict interpretation of Old Testament law would make no difference between the two.
Not that I'm saying that's true absolutely personally have anything against Catholics or other Christians or other religions.

But the second of the Ten Commandments says erecting any statue,picture,bust or graven image of any likeness to anything in the universe for purposes of worship is Idol worship.

I don't care what people worship but if you want the authentic original interpretation of Biblical Law that's it.


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Last edited by vermontsavant on 01 Sep 2020, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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01 Sep 2020, 1:34 pm

KT67 wrote:
... I always learned that but I find it hard to get my head around people (maybe when the Bible was written less so?) actually worshiping an icon? ...
An icon is a representation of something else, but an icon can be worshiped, which turns it into an idol.

For instance, I knew a girl who had a poster of Elvis Presley as a decoration.  After he died, she incorporated it as a shrine to Elvis, and would pray to it as if it was a saint or a god; thus, it became an idol to her.

The only difference between an icon and an idol is the act of worship.


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by their actions and choices, and not by what we imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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01 Sep 2020, 3:25 pm





It's Interesting, there is some 'Psychological Science' That
is Determining that Folks Who Bond And Bind with Fear and Loathing,
Rather Empty Within, Look for a Source of Power, Status, Purpose and Meaning
From An External Source (Like Trump; Perennial Meme for Years to come)

True, Some Folks Bond Over
Happiness, Holding Hands
With Joy Binding Colorful more, Indeed...

Others, Bond over Fear
And Loathing Holding
Hands Where Hate
Becomes more
the Rule
of the
Emptiness
Within that Seeks
A 'Panacea Cure' in
Someone or Something else...

i'm Not Sure if anyone Else here has
Just Been Walking Down the Street with
Young Folks Rolling Down their Car Windows
And Yelling Legend At You; or also Kneeling and
Bowing Before You with Hands Folded; Or Squealing,
Saying, i can't Believe i'm actually meeting you; it's really
You; Truly Like that Scene from the Forrest Gump Movie
And the Dude is Just Out Running Getting His Mind off
the Loss of His Mother; and Love For 'Jenny' too; and the
Young Man Catching Up to Him Running, tells Him He gave
Him Hope; Something Really to Believe in Like Forrest Had the
Meaning of Life all Figured Out coming out of all Life's Confusions...

Well; having Been Named Literally 'Pensacola Icon of Public Dance'
(duh, like i ain't the only who Public Dances, 13,616 Miles, in 7 Years in
A Radius still of 200 Miles in Deep South State Panhandle of Florida Way)
what i will Say is, Terms of Endearment Like You Are Legend; did You know
how Famous You are; You are my Spirit Animal; One Day i Hope to Attain the
Place Where You are at now; or please Mister Please give me what you are on;
You Can't possibly have this much go go go go like an Energizer Bunny that
never stops stops stops without Some Secret Ingredient that i'll be more than
Happy to
Purchase
from you;
And i smile
and say;
meh;
i just
feel like dancing
And it's true, i've got this
Whole Life thing figured out;
but as close as they will likely get
to that Meaning and Purpose in Words
is the Empathic Feeling and Sense of the
Energy of me Dancing in Light Positive for
What they Do Feel when they get close to me;
2000 Beautiful Smiles and more in Ecstatic Glowing
Eyes of Bliss Surely Relays the Message Better than any words will...

in Irrefutable Evidence
for those who require
A Record of it
in Photos to
Believe it too...

I'll tell you this;
it's more of
a Put
Down
to receive a
Compliment like
that when you really
already have it all;
nothing to add;
Just wishing
they could
be where
you
are
Now; Heaven
And Hell; i've seen
Both Places; Heaven
is the Place Where Dance
And Song Flows through all
of one's Reality; the Music of Love For All Now all filled up...

Meh; i worked at a Military Bowling Center, Mostly serving out Shoes
and Ultimately Managing the Place for the Federal Government for 2 Decades;
Promoted to Athletic Director after that Paying Close to top Pay Grades of Regular Federal Service;

The Truth is'; A Smile Exchanged
With Lit up Smiles Serving Rental
Shoes; Spraying all the Germs down
With a Smile With Eyes all Lit up then just for
the Joy of connecting to another Set of Smiling
Eyes; Truly Seemed More Like Genuine Happiness
than someone Basically Squealing at my Feet; i've never
considered my self any Higher or Lower than anyone else
as basically i've always understood that Love is all that really counts...

Nah, 'Jesus' didn't
Teach me that in
Church for sure;
they promoted the
Icon and the Idol of
Evil; the Chief of Fear and
Loathing Hate then; the one
who always wants to Fire ya; Now
that Jesus has become more like that
Idol and Icon of Trump; i just feel lucky
i had a Mother Who Taught me how to make me enough...

Love

Just

Love..

i do understand
Not everyone has
A Pair of God Eyes
LoVE Real Soul Born Bred Now..

i've been called Just about every
Descriptor there is; Essence of Love is my God Remaining Whole And Complete

Anyway; i think it's Hilarious that after being a Shut-in in my Bedroom for 66
Months with No Hope; that i went to the opposite end of what most folks see as success...

i already had all a Human
Breathing With Soul Could
Hope to be; Just Love to Give
And Share Free with Least Harm
Courageous Fearless Wild and Free...

Not so much the Fearless Part before;
the Mix of Fearless and Love is truly
the Most Powerful Force a Human Will Ever be....

Been in enough
other shoes
to really

Get the
Meaning; the
Good Cop Meaning
of the Jesus Hero Archetype at least...

It has nothing to Do with Worship; Or Fear of Criticism;
Nothing to Do about anything about the Dude Jesus
as Form; it's about coming out of DarK and staying
in Light of Love at least, the Good Cop Parts; Been
Around the World; the Only Savior is the Love We Find Within....

Meh;

And then You
Have it All to
Give and Share
Fearlessly Freely
With Least Harm for All, Actually Caring....

Going To Church Is becoming More Like
Watching Fox News Just to See What Extent
of Loathing and Hate Folks Will Move into Next;

Saving Grace is Folks are Just too out of Shape to make a Civil War
Happen; if You've Been to Walmart Lately; You'd Come to Understand

Big
Talk

With No
Passion of
Dance or Song Actually
Breathing increasingly Moved
By Human Carts Sadly than Feet; With
That Said as my Wife Says; i better get off
'this Box' Before Wheels take me where i'm going next...

Ya Gotta
Save Yourself;
Live Long, Long
Enough; and You'll See that Truth at least...

Last 'Man' (Woman and or Man) Standing

You See is Always You no Matter
What Position one is in now...

Might as
Well Make
Love the Breath
the Naked Icon of Seeing Clearly
Truest Idol without Form the Essence of Joy Breathing Now...

There is actually Conspiracy Theorists on the Internet asserting
that the 'Anti-Christ' is Gonna Rule the World With Love; Heaven
Forbid
Huh
in Hell
is Heaven;
Humans are not
Very As Whole Rational; the evidence
shows anything goes with Imagination...
The Face Palm Meter Thicker Than Jungle Forest...
Rising
Every
New
Trump Day
Even More in Fear
Filling Loathing Hating Fray...
And Sure it's contagious on
All Aisles of Humanity
A BLack 'Whole Soul'
Will Surely Suck
Up some
Light;
But true
There is a Greater Force
For Those Who Truly are Love..:)


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naturalplastic
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01 Sep 2020, 3:32 pm

This is an icon:







And this is an idol:



shlaifu
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01 Sep 2020, 4:00 pm

Take a look at etymology: praying to an idol is idolatry. Destroying an idol? Iconoclasm.
Sooo...
The idea of whether a thing is an icon or an idol used to be a bit more important in the 8th and 9th century, until it was settled in the second council of nicea: it's illegal to pray to idols, but praying to icons is okay because they're pointing to god, rather than being god.
Even though we all know we are talking about paint on wood, or a carved rock.

This only makes sense in medieaval interpretation of platonic idealism: everything consists of its tangible form (the "accident") and its transcendental form ("idea" for plato, "substance" for medieval christians).
So, the idea was: if you pretend your painting is divine in substance, you're committing idolatry.

That's also what trans*substantion* is about - the bread that's bread in accident and substance changes into bread in accident and body of christ in substance, when the priest says his magic words "hocus pocus" ...actually, "hoc est corpus meus", latin for "this is my body". But medieval people didn't speak latin, and whatever the priest was doing there was obviously witchcraft. How could bread ever be the body of christ? Hocus pocus! - not even medieval people believed in platonic idealism.

I guess it eventually boils down to: the images of my god are icons, helping me focus on higher things. The images of your god are idols, because your religion is primitive and mine is transcendental and sublime. I will now take your golden calf and melt it into jewellery for my priesthood.


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aghogday
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01 Sep 2020, 11:19 pm

Yeah, It's really Sad; The American Indians
Saw A Great Spirit As Great As Soul of
All Experience Yet
Then some Folks
With a Bunch
of Diseases
Forced A Paper
Word God in a Cover
of A Book on them;
And if the Diseases
Didn't Kill them,
They Forced
Them to
Serve
The Book
And Slaughtered
Them if they didn't comply...
Worst of All, They Clothed them
Away From God; Yeah, Sure, tell
me the Difference Between a God
iN A Word And a God of Nature and
i'll Give you 'the World' And So much More
but what i
won't
Do is
Sell You
A Word or
A Golden Calf
Sculpture of
A Three
Letter
Word
on A Page...
Nature Breathes
This Life Every Breath
is Miracle Enough to Breathe God for Real..
So Naked And Free So Star-Filled With Light Real to See...
To Be Clear 'You' In 'this Story' is No One in Particular but All....
There is at Least Some Poetry in the Old Testament that Greater
Reflects
this God
With No
Name;
that is
Nature; Yet,
There is Other Poetry
Obviously, by Folks of
Whoever Wrote it that
is No Breath of Living Soul
At all; reflecting 'What Trumps'
Have Always been Like through
History without Herstory of Divine Love For All...
Yet All oF it is Forms; Idols and Icons of Sculptures
of Letters, Words, Pages, And Book Covers Numbered Much
Later as Verses that came 1300 Hundred or So Years Before...

The Most Ironic
Part of All is
Folks Don't
Understand
That Words Are
Only Statues of Reality We
Create too; The Problem is
When We Become the Tool and
Lose our Naked Wild and Free Humanity;
In Other Words, When We are no Longer indigenous
Of Nature; Indeed all of Our Ancestors Were As Indian
as the Other Wild and Free Animals Still Are Now For Real

by very
Nature
Indians
of the
Nature
that is God
For Real in our
Every Living Breath
When We Breathe this Truth in Light
Naked no longer Covered up by all of our
Tools that have become extensions of Who
We really are at core in Flow the River of
Existence Naked, Wild and Loving Free...


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vermontsavant
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02 Sep 2020, 8:03 am

shlaifu wrote:
Take a look at etymology: praying to an idol is idolatry. Destroying an idol? Iconoclasm.
Sooo...
The idea of whether a thing is an icon or an idol used to be a bit more important in the 8th and 9th century, until it was settled in the second council of nicea: it's illegal to pray to idols, but praying to icons is okay because they're pointing to god, rather than being god.
Even though we all know we are talking about paint on wood, or a carved rock.

This only makes sense in medieaval interpretation of platonic idealism: everything consists of its tangible form (the "accident") and its transcendental form ("idea" for plato, "substance" for medieval christians).
So, the idea was: if you pretend your painting is divine in substance, you're committing idolatry.

That's also what trans*substantion* is about - the bread that's bread in accident and substance changes into bread in accident and body of christ in substance, when the priest says his magic words "hocus pocus" ...actually, "hoc est corpus meus", latin for "this is my body". But medieval people didn't speak latin, and whatever the priest was doing there was obviously witchcraft. How could bread ever be the body of christ? Hocus pocus! - not even medieval people believed in platonic idealism.

I guess it eventually boils down to: the images of my god are icons, helping me focus on higher things. The images of your god are idols, because your religion is primitive and mine is transcendental and sublime. I will now take your golden calf and melt it into jewellery for my priesthood.

That theory only works in Catholic and Othodox Christianity,I noticed you mentioned the council of Nicea.
Most Icons would be idols in fundamentalist Christianity.

In Judaism all icons would be idols.
The holy Trinity itself is polytheistic and idolatry and pagan.

Christmas and Easter are pagan and idolatry.
Groups t like the JW's who don't believe Jesus was divine are then guilty of worshipping a human sacrifice then,which is as bad as idolatry and polytheism.
The eastern religions are also idolatry because they worship statues and monkey gods.


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02 Sep 2020, 8:04 am

An idol is an icon which is worshipped for more than its artistic value.

All idols are worshipped---but not all icons are worshipped.

Perhaps one could say that an idol is a type of icon.

This is especially true when we look at the "icons" of the Internet age. Those which you click.



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02 Sep 2020, 8:17 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
An idol is an icon which is worshipped for more than its artistic value.

All idols are worshipped---but not all icons are worshipped.

Perhaps one could say that an idol is a type of icon.
Were not talking about art purposes,I like art museums,my town has two,one just for modern art.I honestly don't care if people worship idols.I am informing people if you put any statue,picture,bust or graven image of any likeness to anything in the entire universe in a place of worship,it's no longer an icon it's an idol.according to the Ten Commandments.


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kraftiekortie
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02 Sep 2020, 8:20 am

Right. An idol is an icon that's worshipped. Some icons are not worshipped.

A Buddhist is not going to worship a Russian Orthodox icon----so the icon is not an idol to the Buddhist.



KT67
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02 Sep 2020, 8:28 am

Unless it's pointing towards a god (or higher being, even a human such as the Elvis example), my belief that a rock can actually be a god is severely lower than my belief there might be a god.

But I'm sceptical that it happens.

Especially to the degree of a religion.

If it does then maybe it's based on the idea that a specific stone or whatever (which is hard to break) is magical?

Shrines always seemed odd to me because if it's seen as actually being the god, rather than representing, why do the people who leave the food out either go back to it themselves & eat the food or arrange for another living human to do so? They must know on some level that it's either only a representation or isn't a god or that that particular 'god' can't eat so it's disrespectful to leave it food.

Same as people who set a separate plate out for a ghost. At least then it's generally just one person who's in mourning so can be chocked up to mental illness.