The problem with an afterlife or preserved consciousness

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Well, I expect this will be a controversial take.

Lately I've been thinking about death, as I often do as Halloween approaches. Now, I'm an atheist, but for the sake of this conversation let's say that there is a confirmed afterlife. What then? Personally I find the idea of living forever unsettling, because once you've seen everything, done everything, what else is there to do except slip further and further into existential despair?

I think that the only way for a preserved consciousness to work without being plunged into existential crisis would be if there was a way to reset the system. Similar to deleting files on a computer. Perhaps reserving some of the information in a type of code, but deleting others. Maybe even giving yourself a new name and carving out a new identity once in a while. The idea of existing in a cyber reality with only your consciousness preserved is bizarre to me when I consider how much of my senses make up what I consider to be the closest thing to the concept we call reality.

Today I woke up thinking about this because I had a dream on this exact subject.

I’m not at all unsettled at the thought of living forever, or significantly longer than a human lifespan.

I went to a talk by Dr Joanna Bryson last year where she ridiculed the notion somewhat. Our computers currently do not last very long (much less time than our bodies!) and she argues we would need not just the ability to “upload” consciousness, but also much more durable drives, or people would need to be copied to new drives regularly.

I'd say that's a sane concern.

Really looking at the possibilities of idealism with what seem to be at least local near-reductive materialist consequences or forms of panpsychism that might actually leave information structures in tact even after the atoms that compose them drift apart, it puts you in a place where the idea of permanent progress gets called into question. Really the human experience seems to be about spending the first so many decades (the more you can wring out the luckier) where it seems like you're still moving uphill and growing, learning, etc.. There gets to be a point where you've outmoded and outstripped your environment, where the ways in which your growing actually isolate you because you're no longer fitting in with your environment (a bit like even without being in the 999 club your moving that many standard deviations from the mean in other respects).

When I try to think deeply about what humans see as evil it boils down to:

1) the inferior consuming the superior or regressive transmutation (the later shows up in horror movies with a person being turned into a fly or - in more modern horror, sometimes comedic horror versions, being turned into either a walrus or a chained centipede).

2) Power without nutrients - situations where the maximally violent person or animal wins, gains more power, and this sucks all of the oxygen out of the room for actually having anything like a culture worth living in.

3) Personal collapse to exigence - when the outside pressures are so greatly deranging that you can no longer hold your integrity and survive, so you collapse under that weight and essentially 'lose your soul' in that sense.

The idea that death is permanent non-existence is in some sense more optimistic than the idea that you might still be there and have lost all control of the factors that at least help you hold back some of the problems mentioned in the above three points. It's a bit like being in a whole new environment where you don't know the rules and consequently anything could happen, in a similar way to how human childhood can be like that if you're surrounded by incompetent or even malevolent adults.


I think there is some good news at least in regard to the above in terms of the models we can bring back just from compiling enough of people's reported encounteres with the numinous by various means (that number seems to be increasingly a lot lately through increased medical technology, popularity of psychedelics, mystical procedures, sort of the 'Stealing Fire' kinds of things) and you at least get the sense that the layer that we retreat into, even if still fitness oriented, may not be quite as brutal as the one we currently exist in but it still leaves us with no sense of what ultimate purpose or meaning are, and that's a very difficult thing for human beings to deal with - especially with our experience that stagnation is either submission to others or death at their hands.

1) Afterlife/the ancestral plane/heaven/spirit world - whatever you want to call it - exists. A few months ago I had Direct Communication with a deceased friend w/ a conversation that was just as real as any conversation with anyone here in the flesh world. No one & nothing will ever convince me otherwise.

2) Your concept of a hard drive delete sounds a whole lot like many cultures’ belief in reincarnation. Many people believe they have memories from past lives, so, maybe this does happen and sometimes it’s not a total hard drive reformatting hence the remnants of memories some people have.

If there happens to be a "preserved consciousness," I don't see any problem with that.

I wouldn't mind it if I can "continue" after my body ceases to function.

Dreams can be quite interesting.
Am pretty sure that my take on this afterlife thing also will be controversial.
And since I think the format of this thread is that people's views of the thing are being asked for, here is my take;

I am looking forward to an infinite afterlife with an infinite God.
Who being infinite is not expected to run out of ideas for things for us to do, places to go, experiences to have.
And who being infinite, will always have something new for us to learn about he himself.

I will have a new name, a new identity in that afterlife; permanent as opposed to changing once in a while.
The foundation of that new identity will be in my body and being finally being free of the effects of being part of, of being made in, this fallen world.

And speaking of this world, it itself will be made new, made safe, made healthy, rendered free of despair.

And the system will be reset when this world ends and the next begins,
"For I will create a new heaven and a new earth; the past events will not be remembered or come to mind."
That being just one, permanent, eternal, reset.

I don't know if this will change in that infinite afterlife, but the only thing I can experience is right now; I can't re-experience the past or pre-experience the future, the only thing my awareness can sense and process is right now. Going by my own awareness, I haven't got a clue whether I've already been eternal or not; I have to go by other people's words and documentation, that, yes, I had a beginning and it was at such and such a relation to this moment.

So, yeah, I see the concept of an eternal afterlife as something of a grand adventure.
I'm not yet ready to begin it, there remain things I wish to do here; but I also do not look to run away from it.

That this has never happened to me likely means one of two things:

1) There is no afterlife.

2) People who have transitioned to the afterlife/the ancestral plane/heaven/spirit world couldn't care less about me.

I envy you.

Consciousness is like a river. We are born blank slates, with no understanding. We grow up in societies, and as we do, our nascent souls dip into the human river of experience, via our contacts with our parents, teachers, and other people in our lives. Our unique set of experiences leads us to develop unique 'selves'. Our unique selves perform actions which have a unique impact on other people. When our actions impact the world, we are adding ourselves to the flowing river of consciousness. This river brought us our very souls, through our life experience. After we die, the knock-on affects of our earthly actions continue to affect the others who come after us. It is our personal cup of water added to the river of human consciousness. This river in includes all of the current effects of past actions of past lives; all of our scientific and social knowledge is imparted to future generations this way. And, in turn, our eternal life exists in the continuing effects of our earthly actions. Our lives are important, because they affect the future down through eternity. That's eternal life.

One fine detail - we're apparently the 'blankest' slates in nature in terms of how much of our lives is memetic or cultural layer development but it's not quite the same as being true blank slates.

Part of it is you are approaching this as an atheist. The atheist position would seem to be more optimistic as there is greater urgency to live your best right now. I choose to live my life more atheistically in that I don’t believe God put us here just to wait for the next world. But I also don’t look at the afterlife and eternity as being a bad thing, either, since a perfect state of being, or a paradise, by its nature will take care of the problem you mentioned.

And this is where I diverge from atheistic thinking. What we consider paradise would be the equivalent of Hell from the perspective of the atheist. To be forced to live in the presence of God in paradise would be torment for the atheist. But to continue in nothing/“outer darkness” for eternity really isn’t any more of an improvement, even if it happens to be a fair or merciful alternative.

In a nutshell, what you expect from the afterlife is precisely what you get. If you expect nothing, you get nothing. I prefer to expect everything!

Two Things After Life Now;

Whoops That's 3 Words Now;

But Who is Counting Forevernow;

Good News, i Don't Really

KNoW You 'Fnord'

But i care

About You;

This is the Key

to the After Life Now;

It's Not Something We

Empirically Measure it's Like

River It Flows For No Conscious

Reason Now

This

Way

River

Flows Forever

Now Not Unlike Love

With No ReaSon EternALLY NoW

Even Quantum Mechanics 'Predicts'

THiS ETernal Now of Change in Balance;

i Don't Need Any New Instructions For i am Born

ThiS Way Again and Again and Again Forever Now Love

i'm leaving For

Now Yes

of Course

i Will ALWaYS

Be BacK NoW

YeT YouR Door

Is YouRS Now For

Keys to 'a' 'the' 'OTHeR SiDE' Now;

Tight Fit but keep tying if you will...

You'll Get

Through

EVeNTuaLLy
to 'the Other Side' NoW
This is Just How i See Hope, Love as Reborn
Faith Beyond YouR CuRRenT MEaSure of ReaLiTy Now...

To Be Clear, if possible, 'Fnord' Will BE A Metaphor in this One Instance for ALL THaT IS NoW...

Other than that Beethoven Flesh Dead for A Few Centuries His Soul Still Plays Clearly Through Sonatas...

Breakfast

In America

'Find A New

Ambition'

Greater

Than

Building

Golden Pyramids

Etched in Initials of DJT;

Nothing, Nothing At all of Soul...

Why Upload when nothing Breathes Love....

Just saYin...

As Far As

'Scientists'

Who wanna
Leave their
Initials somewhere
For Folks to Copy Again...

We Hoard the Dead in America
From Gravesite 'till After Death
Demanding That Someone Stay
Our View of them Never even Freeing "JeSuS"
to Do whatever the Hell he wants to Do in Heaven Now...

Anyway, in General, 'Breakfast in America', Like Super Trump Sings the

'Coca Cola' 'HeaR' 'See' Rots 'Souls'

iN Pyramid
Etching
Golden
Towers
In DJT ways;

Why Worry About an
After-Life Until We truly BreaTHE Free
NoW WHere NoW is JusT ENough for LoVE ALL to See...

A Percy Jackson-esque approach. Where all of the afterlives exist and you get what you expect. So if you're expecting an Ancient Greek, or Norse, or Egyptian or something else that's what you get. If you expect nothing that's it. You could even speculate that the world is a simulation and has a multiple-choice ending. However, I prefer to think that the world is incredibly chaotic and doesn't care. That we exist simply because we do.

Not having something to fix or work towards does indeed terrify me. A utopia would be a dystopia in my eyes. Frankly I already have moments where I question my existence. Still, I most definitely do not want to join organised religion again. I hated how controlling it was. Besides, I don't find the concept particularly plausible but I know that it helps others. Most religious texts have been translated so many times that I question what was even in them in the first place.

I think I'd either take nothing or a simulated experience over some kind of traditional God. Especially not the controlling kind people talk about that apparently cares when you masturbate and if you're wearing the right fabric of clothes. I'd prefer to think we might be in a game of The Sims right now rather than that. Might help to explain the chaos of the world.

However, I guess the main problem with religion is that there is no way to effectively prove it. We can't go in and out of death. I did know about someone who died for a moment but they didn't see anything. Rather, it was more like one moment they could feel themselves shutting down and the next they weren't. If it really is based on what we expect, I'll take a definite end as I believe that all good stories have one.

On the other hand, I have a relative that has seen hallucinations. She has Alzheimer's unfortunately. The hallucinations seem to fit her memories of people that are now dead. She thinks that she hears doorbells when she does not, and that there are children playing in her house when there are not. I believe that this is simply due to her mental deterioration and her memories are getting mixed up. Possibly some kind of infection. Some speculate that she is seeing into the spirit world because she's close to death, but I highly doubt it. Yes, she's close to death, but no I don't think she's seeing spirits. They are simply memories. I really hope I don't develop it. The thought of that is concerning. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a tragedy that she has the condition. However, I've never really met her- she's spent most of my life in hospital. Unfortunately she had numerous cancers and somehow survived through them only to develop Alzheimer's. The world is cruel like that. Or rather apathetic. That's how I think about it.

Oh, make no mistake, I believe the Judeo-Christian conception of Heaven is the only correct one. What I meant was either you believe in that or you believe in nothing, or at least nothing real, and if what you hope for is beyond reality then you get nothing at all. I do think you have an interesting take on it.

Do I KNOW what’s in Heaven? No. I only know that it’s perfect, and thus I expect Heaven really is everything. I am not perfect or all-knowing, but I do know at least Heaven will meet my expectations if not exceed them. Atheists will invariably be uncomfortable with the unknown—denying evidence or clues to God and eternity—but for the Christian intellectual this is a non-issue.

I will say this much, though: I often wonder about the simulation hypothesis. If you think of the fabric of the universe as a literal fabric or n-dimension lattice and physical reality as merely the projection of that lattice, it’s not terribly difficult to understand beings that exist apart from that lattice who either created it or at least continued to interact with it to affect outcomes in the physical world. Supernatural events would never have been understood or evidenced as such because all events are a result of the projection. Some physical beings might perceive the actual original form being projected in 4-dimensional space while others find it more convenient to assume that the projection itself is the only reality.

Taken a step further, human beings can’t be seen as intelligent creatures, merely artificially intelligent. We ARE the machines. And so the end of the line is application of machine learning to detecting the Creator/Programmer. The desired model perceives and effectively interacts with its creator, while the alternative model cannot functionally achieve its purpose if it acknowledges the Creator exist. Notice that in both cases, the human machine is AWARE that the Creator does, indeed, exist. The human machine is confined to its own free choices within the lattice structure, and can even freely choose to believe that there are no free choices, or even any reality at all. By choosing to accept the working program, the human machine can ultimately, with the help of the Creator, transcend the temporal dimensions of the lattice and join Him on the other side. The alternative would be reaching an infinite loop at which the dynamic state of the human machine/object becomes static. It is discovering that infinite loop within the lattice structure early on that makes all the difference as to whether one’s machine state becomes fixed in reconciliation with the Creator or eternal rejection of the Creator.

It’s always fascinating working with different models, and the idea of all reality consisting of an n-dimension matrix is one I’ve been tinkering with as a replacement for modern music theory—or at least as a new model for intelligent music composition. I’m a composer among other things, not a physics expert or mathematician, so if I know anything it’s only after many, MANY years of studying it entirely on my own!

KingQueenDom HeAVeN

WiTHiN NoW OR NoT...

- 'JusT SaYiN'

Other Places too
Within Now, No, Not
NEarly Perfectly PLeaSinG
Now Done 'em All Veteran
ReaLiTy Real Now FOR Me

-at Least...

'i am' Very Happy
i Will Never LiVE iN
YouR VersioN oR YouRS in
MinE ThiS WaY God Doesn't
Get BoReD ETernAlly NoW EiTHeR...

NoW iN
HeaVeN
oR HeLL
And The
Tween of
All oF THiS iN All THaT is...

^^^

In Other Words
What 'The Hell' Or
'Heaven' Are You
Waiting on Now
FoR A 'Welfare'
God to Prepare For
'Us' Free Look Around
Heaven Ain't Free Look
Within Seek And Find Heaven
NoW Is What We Co-Create With
Breath of God NoW FoR Real NoW

WiTHiN

or

NoT....

Just Keep Waiting...

Till After Your Last Breath...

Maybe You'll Return Forever...

NoW With A Chance to Never Find Heaven

Within But Remember Your Will Is Yours Free...

Ain't

It

Ironic

Waiting on

Heaven Forever Now

TaKinG Someone Else's Advice
Over What Truly Breathes Within

Such a Very Strange World People

Create Heaven or Hell NoW iN Deed...

Externally

They ATTeMPT

To Do THiS AWaY From Free

Breathing Within Peace And Love

Forever Now to See And Be i Am...

Just One Second Within of Heaven

For Real Is Worth More Than An

Eternity In A

Dead

Book

of Symbols

That Will Never Escape

Covers or Pages out of Gehenna FoR REAL.. NoW...

JusT ANoTHeR VieW AWaY From DarKeR Sides.. oF Bible Moons...

Ah, I misinterpreted what you wrote then. Sorry. I think my main question would be why you believe that interpretation to be correct but not others. However, I might be poking a hornet's nest by asking that.