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Bradleigh
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12 Oct 2020, 1:12 am

Brictoria wrote:
The fact that the "tax master" is more benevolent towards yourself (or those in similar\related positions) than a "wage master" does not detract from the fact that the "tax master" has more power\exert considerably more control over people than a "wage master", making "tax slavery" a greater form of "slavery" than "wage slavery".

Consider: You are entirely dependant, based on your post, on the good-will of your "tax master". Should their good-will change, you have minimal recourse, not being able to change to a different "tax master". However, should you be dependant on a "wage master", you have the potential to find a new "wage master" who will better provide for your needs, should the good-will of your present "wage master" change.


I spent a very long time even looking for a "wage master" I even did over a year of unpaid volunteer work (what type of master is that?), which I started before and continued as I managed to get a part time "wage master", which I secured because of the "tax master" that worked through agencies and promised a subsidy. That is even how I have my current job, another part time job that is otherwise $600(AU) a fortnight.

I wish that I could have an easy job getting a "wage master", I worked my butt off studying in TAFE and university so that I could meet the requirements, and sent in hundreds of resumes, but it can be surprisingly difficult to do so if you are not so lucky with certain things.


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TheRobotLives
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12 Oct 2020, 1:16 am

League_Girl wrote:
Here in the US you can choose how much you want withheld in tax. I always do 0 so that means I get all my money back in taxes and I owe nothing. The more you decide you withhold in taxes, the more you will owe in taxes so I claim 0 always. I used to owe money in taxes as a young adult and would get around 30 bucks back in taxes. Then I got married and we both started to claim 0 on our wages and we got back around $2000 in taxes. Then we had kids and we got even more back in taxes.

You likely pay ...

Social Security tax
Medicare tax
sales tax
utility taxes
food taxes
phone taxes
gas taxes
.... at least.


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auntblabby
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12 Oct 2020, 1:19 am

taxes are the price decent people pay to live in a decent society.



Jiheisho
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12 Oct 2020, 1:23 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
The economic argument is that government action and taxes makes the economy inefficient.

The general idea is ...

When you tax, you take money from careful spending individuals and give to a wasteful, inefficiently spending government entity.

So, you get less overall.


Actually, that is not it. It is simply the belief that markets are the most efficient.

As far as getting less overall, that is not true either. Markets are very inefficient at supporting public goods. If you want roads, schools, or lighthouses, public spending works far better.



Jiheisho
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12 Oct 2020, 1:25 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Please explain to me why high taxation in return for universal health insurance and social benefits are a bad thing?

Same reason slavery is bad.

Someone else should not own your labor.


So you are against capitalism. Slavery was the capitalist answer to labor.



auntblabby
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12 Oct 2020, 1:25 am

i'd much rather pay taxes to a central governmental authority than to a thousand and one different toll takers. but the robber barons like this latter arrangement better because they can steal more effectively from more of us in more places.



TheRobotLives
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12 Oct 2020, 1:30 am

Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Please explain to me why high taxation in return for universal health insurance and social benefits are a bad thing?

Same reason slavery is bad.

Someone else should not own your labor.


So you are against capitalism. Slavery was the capitalist answer to labor.

Few people have sympathy for "wage slaves".

Image


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auntblabby
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12 Oct 2020, 1:33 am

capitalists will tell you, that you as a riffraff, will always have the amuuuurican freedom to starve to death.



TheRobotLives
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12 Oct 2020, 2:08 am

Fortunately, people have options to "escape" taxes.

"Puerto Rico hopes to lure American mainlanders with an income tax of only 4%".
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood ... 2e6d751362


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Jiheisho
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12 Oct 2020, 2:10 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Please explain to me why high taxation in return for universal health insurance and social benefits are a bad thing?

Same reason slavery is bad.

Someone else should not own your labor.


So you are against capitalism. Slavery was the capitalist answer to labor.

Few people have sympathy for "wage slaves".

Image


I was actually talking about real slavery, where you buy and sell human beings. Those people don't have a choice of quitting.



auntblabby
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12 Oct 2020, 2:14 am

not everybody has the "choice" [as if there were something resembling free will in this hellworld] of quitting their job. jobs are hard to come by for those at the bottom of the pecking order.



Brictoria
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12 Oct 2020, 2:20 am

auntblabby wrote:
not everybody has the "choice" [as if there were something resembling free will in this hellworld] of quitting their job. jobs are hard to come by for those at the bottom of the pecking order.


Maybe instead of blindly supporting a party which will add to the competition (and so keep wages and conditions low) faced by those in low income\entry level positions through policies which attract\incentivise people to be in the country illegally (who then take these positions from those legally there), you could consider an alternative party to support?


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Fireblossom
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12 Oct 2020, 9:17 am

I come from a country with high taxes that are used for stuff like health care, school (we have almost no private schools here), disability benefits, unemployment benefits, parental benefits etc. and while I'm certainly not against our system, I can understand why some people are, for it has many faults, some more serious than others. Here are some exambles:

- While we have public health care, the quality of it can be very different depending on where you live. It shouldn't be, according to the law, but it is. Also, getting help from the public side can be very difficult as the waiting times can be very long and it's common that the health care professionals don't take patients seriously unless the problem is something very obvious that they can easily find. This said, I can understand why some people who've had to deal with the slow and often ineffective public health care would rather have lower taxes and use the spared money for private health care, where one can get service faster and the staff is more likely to take them seriously.

- While public health care is like a lottery win for people with chronic illnesses and physical disabilities who need it a lot, people who rarely need a doctor's services might find it a waste of their money. Of course, it quarantees (in theory, at least) that if something does happen to these healthy people then they'll get help, like an insurance, but many would probably prefer an actual health insurance over the high taxes as to not pay for other people's health care.

- Schools. Again, all schools should be equally good, that's what the law demands and what many politicans want us to believe, but they're not. Certain neighborhoods have schools with a lot more problem students and, more importantly, schools in remote locations don't offer nearly as good variation of classes as schools in the cities. This would be fine if everyone paid for their own children's education, but it's unfair that city kids have access to better education than country kids even though parents of both groups pay taxes.

- Again, about schools. While everyone gets some form of education, not everyone gets kids, so those without kids end up paying for other people's children's education as well. Not all are happy with that.

- Using money on things like libraries that some have better acces to than others. Again, it's about city vs. countryside. There's no discount on taxes for those who live in the country, but their tax money is still used for libraries and such that city people have way better access to due to living closer. Libraries are also bigger in city centers.

- Using money on things one considers unimportant, at least in comparison to other things, like the big Independence Day celebration held almost each year here (no party this year though) for politicans and such.

- Some people think that criminals in prisons have it too easy and that less tax money should be used to take care of them. The money would be better directed at elderly care, hospitals, schools... anything really. And yes, this is also my opinion. Not saying that we should let criminals starve, but other than very basic needs, life in prison should be one of the things at the very bottom to use tax money on. Especially when there are law following citizens who skip meals 'cause they can't afford it, but in prisons, criminals are well fed.

- Benefits. While most people who are on benefits either try their hardest to get a job or are unable to work, there are some who don't really try all that hard to get employed since they can survive on benefits. While I don't mind paying taxes so that those who can't work despite their best efforts can survive, I don't like it either that it makes it possible for some who just don't want to work to take it easy.

- Stuff like tax money used to help other struggling countries. I get the idea behind it, but I don't think it should be done in a large scale when there are many people in the country where the tax money comes from who are struggling just to afford food.



Nades
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12 Oct 2020, 10:21 am

GGPViper wrote:
What should be provided by the government and funded by taxes?

Well, with 10+ years of hands-on experience as a government official and regulator, here's my opinion:

Very good idea:
- Defense & Law Enforcement

Good idea:
- Health Care
- Education & Research

So-So idea:
- Social Security (Pensions, unemployment benefits etc.)
- Media
- Infrastructure (Roads, rail etc.)
- Utilities (Electricity, Water etc.)

Bad idea:
- Real Estate (Construction and Housing)
- Services

Very bad idea:
- Industry


Why would industry be a bad idea?



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12 Oct 2020, 11:33 am

Nades wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Very bad idea:
- Industry

Why would industry be a bad idea?

There is little (if any) economic rationale for having governments produce industrial goods.

Theoretical: Industrial goods are good examples of "standard" market goods:

They are rival goods (the consumption of the good by one excludes the consumption by another)

Industrial goods are also mostly private goods (only the person using the good derives utility from its use).

Empirical: When compared to market production, countries where governments have the responsibility for industrial production have fared very poorly throughout history, as they have been mostly highly inefficient and prone to capture by special interests. The Soviet Union and pre-1978 China are prime examples, but not the only ones.

Productivity growth is also higher in industry than in the services sector (where the product is a task performed by a person, and not a "thing"), so there is a greater potential for efficiency gains from market competition.


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XFilesGeek
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12 Oct 2020, 3:19 pm

auntblabby wrote:
not everybody has the "choice" [as if there were something resembling free will in this hellworld] of quitting their job. jobs are hard to come by for those at the bottom of the pecking order.


Do you use Reddit by any chance? if you do, I invite you to join us over at r/antiwork and r/latestagecapitalism. There's a lot of good Leftist discussion that goes on in those subs, and it's a nice reminder that not everybody worships The Line, and believes in the "Prosperity Gospel."

Anyway, I'm with you, brother. America is very good at spreading propaganda and the illusion of "choice."


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