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Earthbound_Alien
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12 Jan 2022, 7:18 am

there are huge differences between them

stop comparing them



JimJohn
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12 Jan 2022, 10:12 am

Earthbound_Alien wrote:
there are huge differences between them

stop comparing them


The Queen has spoken.



Edna3362
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12 Jan 2022, 5:43 pm

It seems that people who are a bit needier are judged as narcissistic than the others who don't deal with the same stuff. :roll:

Can't ignore pain and need for help? Narcissistic.

Don't have sensory filters to block out details that is registered as equally important?
Narcissistic.

Can't get along because no one gets it and everyone is allowed to be hypocritical?
Narcissistic.

Have communication issues, trying to fix it, cause communication is a fickle thing to interpret?
Narcissistic.

Wanting a time alone, and also can't have schedules full because you're so exhausted?
Narcissistic.

Abused as a child? Pampered as a child?
Narcissistic.

Have a form of emotional dysregulation, ends up being too sensitive or insensitive as a result?
Narcissistic.

Triggered? Narcissistic. Don't react enough? Narcissistic.

Drawing facts? Offering reasoning? Stating opinions?
Narcissistic.

Defensive? Narcissistic. Can't defend? Cause it's true because narcissism.

Wanting friends/romance/family/pets/children? Narcissistic.
Not wanting friends/romance/family/pets/children? Narcissistic.

Hungry? Narcissistic.
NOT hungry? Still narcissistic.


Yeah, it's autism's fault I got hit by a lightning. :roll: Or that lightning causes autism.

Conclusion: Everyone's a hypocrite.


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kraftiekortie
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13 Jan 2022, 9:54 am

Anybody who doesn’t agree with you seems to be a “narcissist” these days.



IsabellaLinton
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13 Jan 2022, 10:19 am

Earthbound_Alien wrote:
there are huge differences between them

stop comparing them



https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/narcis ... ce-1114174

Here's a handy reference tool.

I don't love the way they describe Autism but in general, the differences are quite apparent.


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League_Girl
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13 Jan 2022, 10:42 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Anybody who doesn’t agree with you seems to be a “narcissist” these days.



And anyone who doesn't agree with you are just gaslighting you.


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QFT
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13 Jan 2022, 11:10 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Earthbound_Alien wrote:
there are huge differences between them

stop comparing them



https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/narcis ... ce-1114174

Here's a handy reference tool.

I don't love the way they describe Autism but in general, the differences are quite apparent.


I check boxes on both sides. Item 3 is a good example. Very often I don't take no for the answer, yet I don't punish either I beg. So thats kinda in-between. Item 5 is another good example. There I definitely check on the right side, and so do a lot of other people on Love and Dating section of WP.

Item 1, I mostly check on the left, then I feel like a loser as a result, and on rare occasions when I have an opportunity to "make up" for being a loser I check the one on the right. I just don't have an opportunity to do the latter that often. But I often fantasize of one, and then utilize it when it arises.

I think narcissism is a defense mechanism of being hurt. Both in aspies and NT cases. Aspies get hurt a lot more. So thats why they utlilize it more.

This is not unique to NPD. I think Asperger has a lot of overlap with a lot of different personality disorders. I know I check boxes of several different ones.



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13 Jan 2022, 3:10 pm

Edna3362 wrote:
It seems that people who are a bit needier are judged as narcissistic than the others who don't deal with the same stuff. :roll:

Can't ignore pain and need for help? Narcissistic.

Don't have sensory filters to block out details that is registered as equally important?
Narcissistic.

Can't get along because no one gets it and everyone is allowed to be hypocritical?
Narcissistic.

Have communication issues, trying to fix it, cause communication is a fickle thing to interpret?
Narcissistic.

Wanting a time alone, and also can't have schedules full because you're so exhausted?
Narcissistic.

Abused as a child? Pampered as a child?
Narcissistic.

Have a form of emotional dysregulation, ends up being too sensitive or insensitive as a result?
Narcissistic.

Triggered? Narcissistic. Don't react enough? Narcissistic.

Drawing facts? Offering reasoning? Stating opinions?
Narcissistic.

Defensive? Narcissistic. Can't defend? Cause it's true because narcissism.

Wanting friends/romance/family/pets/children? Narcissistic.
Not wanting friends/romance/family/pets/children? Narcissistic.

Hungry? Narcissistic.
NOT hungry? Still narcissistic.


Yeah, it's autism's fault I got hit by a lightning. :roll: Or that lightning causes autism.

Conclusion: Everyone's a hypocrite.


Exactly. I have been called selfish when I just existed, or stuck up, and people online think I'm a narcissist.



CockneyRebel
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14 Jan 2022, 1:24 am

I agree. I don't fit many of the traits of Narcissitic Personality disorder. I care about others.


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Edna3362
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14 Jan 2022, 2:12 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
I agree. I don't fit many of the traits of Narcissitic Personality disorder. I care about others.

It doesn't matter if you're showing behaviors or signs that you're thinking anything else but other people and socializing in general it seems. :roll:


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JimJohn
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14 Jan 2022, 1:36 pm

I take to heart the fact that someone with more difficulty is often unjustly called narcistic.

I guess it has common usage and a more clinical usage.

One thing I find interesting about people with Narcistic Personality Disorder is a theory about it's origins. Supposedly, some people think that people with the disorder do not have a stable internal sense of self. Their sense of self fluctuates. Supposedly, it can come from a parent that praises, loves or shows attention to a child for qualities such as being better than other people.

Personally, I have a stable sense of self. I am thankful that somewhere in my past I developed a sense of self.

As a side note: I was watching a description of Nietchzie's Theory of the Morality of Slaves. Supposedly, much of morality comes from religion which is tied to the time when the jews were slaves in Egypt. Part of that is obviously not to be selfish. It was food for thought. I won't suggest watching the youtube video because I know everyone has different interests.



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14 Jan 2022, 2:20 pm

JimJohn wrote:
One thing I find interesting about people with Narcistic Personality Disorder is a theory about it's origins. Supposedly, some people think that people with the disorder do not have a stable internal sense of self. Their sense of self fluctuates. Supposedly, it can come from a parent that praises, loves or shows attention to a child for qualities such as being better than other people.


That's an interesting point. Because when I complain about rejection to NT-s, I am sometimes told to be happy with myself. I always take it as a cop-out and get insulted, because I assume that they know perfectly well that *THEY* need external validation, so why would they tell *ME* anything else, unless its them being passive aggressive against me.

But now you are telling me that no, normal people don't get it from others, they get it internally. In fact that is what separates normal people from narcissists. That is news to me. So are you saying that what they told me was not a cop-out but rather "don't be a narcissist"?

So now I am at an even more interesting question. On the other hand, YOU weren't making a cop-out, so what you said must have some degree of truth. But on the other hand, NT-s clearly DO care about opinions of others. In fact majority of NT activity is just about that. So how do you put these two contradictory things together?

JimJohn wrote:
As a side note: I was watching a description of Nietchzie's Theory of the Morality of Slaves. Supposedly, much of morality comes from religion which is tied to the time when the jews were slaves in Egypt. Part of that is obviously not to be selfish. It was food for thought. I won't suggest watching the youtube video because I know everyone has different interests.


That brings me to another statement that I used to regard as a cop-out. When I complain about isolation to secular people, I am told "be happy with yourself". When I complain about it to Christians, I am told "just serve the Lord". I get equally insulted by both statements. To be clear: I am Christian myself, as you can see from my posts. And I came to faith on my own so I was passionate about it at least when I first believed. But, and it is a big but, I get really angry when people say "just serve the Lord" as a way of responding to my complaints about not having a girlfriend. Because that sounds passive aggressive: instead of telling me why is it they don't think I should have a girlfriend, they are trying to disract me into the "serving the Lord" business.

Now, my main motivation for a girlfriend is *not* sex (I don't believe in sex before marriage). My motivation is "external validation" as you put it. On the other hand the comment "just serve the Lord" sounds like a cop-out, precisely *because* it directs me "internally". Maybe I misinterpret it. Maybe they mean go to church which is sort of external. But thats not how I interpretted it. I interpretted "just serve the Lord" as lock myself in a room and mediate or something. While "have a girlfriend" I interpret as "get all that external validation". Thats why when I was told "serve the Lord instead of having a girlfrined" I heard "validate yourself internally instead of externally", and that very statement is what makes me so mad.

But are you saying that my assumption that NT-s get validated externally is actually false (as evident by you saying only narcissists do that)? If so, then I would be a lot less angry by those comments because then they wouldn't be cop-outs any more.

Although the problem is: if NT-s don't get validated externally, why are they trying to put nice clothes, associate with people that would make them feel good, etc.



JimJohn
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14 Jan 2022, 4:28 pm

QFT wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
One thing I find interesting about people with Narcistic Personality Disorder is a theory about it's origins. Supposedly, some people think that people with the disorder do not have a stable internal sense of self. Their sense of self fluctuates. Supposedly, it can come from a parent that praises, loves or shows attention to a child for qualities such as being better than other people.


That's an interesting point. Because when I complain about rejection to NT-s, I am sometimes told to be happy with myself. I always take it as a cop-out and get insulted, because I assume that they know perfectly well that *THEY* need external validation, so why would they tell *ME* anything else, unless its them being passive aggressive against me.

But now you are telling me that no, normal people don't get it from others, they get it internally. In fact that is what separates normal people from narcissists. That is news to me. So are you saying that what they told me was not a cop-out but rather "don't be a narcissist"?

So now I am at an even more interesting question. On the other hand, YOU weren't making a cop-out, so what you said must have some degree of truth. But on the other hand, NT-s clearly DO care about opinions of others. In fact majority of NT activity is just about that. So how do you put these two contradictory things together?

JimJohn wrote:
As a side note: I was watching a description of Nietchzie's Theory of the Morality of Slaves. Supposedly, much of morality comes from religion which is tied to the time when the jews were slaves in Egypt. Part of that is obviously not to be selfish. It was food for thought. I won't suggest watching the youtube video because I know everyone has different interests.


That brings me to another statement that I used to regard as a cop-out. When I complain about isolation to secular people, I am told "be happy with yourself". When I complain about it to Christians, I am told "just serve the Lord". I get equally insulted by both statements. To be clear: I am Christian myself, as you can see from my posts. And I came to faith on my own so I was passionate about it at least when I first believed. But, and it is a big but, I get really angry when people say "just serve the Lord" as a way of responding to my complaints about not having a girlfriend. Because that sounds passive aggressive: instead of telling me why is it they don't think I should have a girlfriend, they are trying to disract me into the "serving the Lord" business.

Now, my main motivation for a girlfriend is *not* sex (I don't believe in sex before marriage). My motivation is "external validation" as you put it. On the other hand the comment "just serve the Lord" sounds like a cop-out, precisely *because* it directs me "internally". Maybe I misinterpret it. Maybe they mean go to church which is sort of external. But thats not how I interpretted it. I interpretted "just serve the Lord" as lock myself in a room and mediate or something. While "have a girlfriend" I interpret as "get all that external validation". Thats why when I was told "serve the Lord instead of having a girlfrined" I heard "validate yourself internally instead of externally", and that very statement is what makes me so mad.

But are you saying that my assumption that NT-s get validated externally is actually false (as evident by you saying only narcissists do that)? If so, then I would be a lot less angry by those comments because then they wouldn't be cop-outs any more.

Although the problem is: if NT-s don't get validated externally, why are they trying to put nice clothes, associate with people that would make them feel good, etc.


I have googled after the fact to see where I came up with what I wrote about NPD. Apparently, there are two classic schools of thought on the causes of NPD. One is the Object-Relation Model from Otto Kernberi. Another is the Self Psychology Model from Heinz Kohut. I googled Heinz Kohut. That is apparently where my comment comes from.



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14 Jan 2022, 7:42 pm

QFT wrote:
That's an interesting point. Because when I complain about rejection to NT-s, I am sometimes told to be happy with myself. I always take it as a cop-out and get insulted, because I assume that they know perfectly well that *THEY* need external validation, so why would they tell *ME* anything else, unless its them being passive aggressive against me.

But now you are telling me that no, normal people don't get it from others, they get it internally. In fact that is what separates normal people from narcissists. That is news to me. So are you saying that what they told me was not a cop-out but rather "don't be a narcissist"?

So now I am at an even more interesting question. On the other hand, YOU weren't making a cop-out, so what you said must have some degree of truth. But on the other hand, NT-s clearly DO care about opinions of others. In fact majority of NT activity is just about that. So how do you put these two contradictory things together?



From "The Science of Evil" by Simon Baron-Coen, The three personality disorders; Narcissist, Borderline, and Psychopath are on the zero empathy scale. Empathy is both genetic and environmental.



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14 Jan 2022, 8:00 pm

I think narcissists are playing a kind of double blind game, where they fool themselves as well as others.

They have an unstable sense of self which requires external validation. When they don't receive that, they take actions to prop up their self-esteem by ensuring they are always in control and dominating others. Unfortunately, others may mistake this behaviour as equivalent to "self-confidence" and "leadership potential", thus validating the narcissist.

The narcissist continues the behaviours until stopped by someone with power over them. When stopped from getting their way, the narcissist has a hissy fit / tantrum. The vocal nature of the tantrum draws to them others who also feel wronged by people in power. The support of these people prop up their self-esteem all over again.

Instead of apologising for bad behaviour the narcissist convinces themselves and those around them that it was justified by the actions of the one who would not bow down to them. They will exaggerate and lie about what this person has done until they create a "truth" of what happened to suit their personal agenda. By this stage, they are well past the point of recognising the influence of their deep-seated insecurities.

The above illustrates why it is so hard to stop narcissists. Even the worst things they do can earn them support from some. (Just look at Trump).

There doesn't seem to be much overlap, if any, between autism and narcissism. The nature of autism makes it very difficult if not impossible to generate enough approval from those around us to prop up our self-esteem. If anything, many of us are the opposite, we are too aware of our internal insecurities and lack self-confidence, because of the way we have been misunderstood and badly treated by others throughout our lives.

People just get confused because we tend to be naturally a bit self-centred, and have to work hard at connecting with others. When we get too tired to do it or get it wrong, they assume we don't care :(



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14 Jan 2022, 9:27 pm

Some believe that having some small amount of narcissism is necessary to be normal and healthy as opposed someone that hates themselves. Every thing is a spectrum and the only good thing about narcissism is less likely to do harm.