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blitzkrieg
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29 Jan 2022, 2:50 am

Freedom of speech (within reason) is also a fundamental, human right.



naturalplastic
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29 Jan 2022, 2:59 pm

Let me give you some advice.

Comparing "Wokeness" to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews is self defeating because it makes you look like you're a dozen kinds of stupid, and also possibly sanity-impaired.

However- if you put the "Holocaust" aside for a moment and ponder another period of mid twentieth century history- that of the US- you might make some headway.

If you were to compare extreme "wokeness" to the MacCarthy Period in the US in the late Forties/early Fifties then you might be able to build a good case.

If you were to ask "has wokeness become a new kind of McCarthyism?" , and then point to say a teacher who once said something homophobic and then had their career ruined- then compare that to folks whose lives were ruined by Joe McCarthy because twenty years earlier they had a flirtation with Communism as a creed for fifteen minutes- then you might have a strong argument.



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29 Jan 2022, 3:04 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
Freedom of speech (within reason) is also a fundamental, human right.


Agreed, the disagreement is over how we'd define within reason.


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29 Jan 2022, 3:15 pm

White suprimists and other bigots will always fight back when they feel oppressed. This is in our history. We have had white flights, angry riots from white suprimists, people have been murdered for trying to fight for equality (people even speculate this is why JF Kennedy was assinated). This is no different than families enabling abusers because it's easier to avoid their bullying and angry rages when you stand up to them. People who enable this stuff are apologists and enablers. Call it gaslighting all you want but this is the truth.

I also used to be in the same boat about freedom of speech but when it comes to bullying and putting minorities in danger, this goes beyond freedom of speech. People may have bigoted views but however people with those views put those with bigoted views into power (Look at why trump was elected, look at Hitler) because they will vote those into power that will suppress minorities that will strip away their rights. Joe Biden had to reverse lot of it when it came into Office so minorities had their rights back again that trump had stripped away. Yes bigots were angry about it. Once I realized how much power bigoted opinions held, I started to fight for it too and go against the freedom of speech crap. Now I think it's used as a cop out for enabling them.


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ASPartOfMe
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29 Jan 2022, 6:39 pm

League_Girl wrote:
But wokes only want to cancel bigots that have harmful beliefs..

Trouble is wokes believe people who are bigots and have harmful beliefs are people who do not agree 100 percent with them.


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29 Jan 2022, 6:45 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
An authoritarian wokeologists' safe space is a political moderate persons danger area & also a hardcore right-winger danger area, and everything between those two points, on a linear scale.

Radical leftism is doomed/dead. If you don't believe me, check back in 2 and a half years.

Dead, I tell you. :mrgreen:

Radical leftism should be dead. Problem is the MAGA’s, the Tucker Carson types keep feeding them validation.


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cyberdad
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29 Jan 2022, 6:52 pm

League_Girl wrote:
White suprimists and other bigots will always fight back when they feel oppressed. This is in our history. We have had white flights, angry riots from white suprimists, people have been murdered for trying to fight for equality (people even speculate this is why JF Kennedy was assinated). This is no different than families enabling abusers because it's easier to avoid their bullying and angry rages when you stand up to them. People who enable this stuff are apologists and enablers. Call it gaslighting all you want but this is the truth. .


This is roughly my philosophy as well. The targets of right wing bigots are always the most vulnerable who aren't able to properly defend themselves and secondly who live with victimisation on a daily basis.

I am continually amazed on WP why many Aspies support right wingers? given they see themselves as a discriminated minority. It's not rocket science why right wingers are more likely to be abelists



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29 Jan 2022, 7:11 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
An authoritarian wokeologists' safe space is a political moderate persons danger area & also a hardcore right-winger danger area, and everything between those two points, on a linear scale.

Radical leftism is doomed/dead. If you don't believe me, check back in 2 and a half years.

Dead, I tell you. :mrgreen:

Radical leftism should be dead. Problem is the MAGA’s, the Tucker Carson types keep feeding them validation.


As long as capitalism exists there will be people who are critical of it, even if the MAGA/WN/WS bloc were to fade into oblivion.


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ASPartOfMe
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29 Jan 2022, 7:21 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
An authoritarian wokeologists' safe space is a political moderate persons danger area & also a hardcore right-winger danger area, and everything between those two points, on a linear scale.

Radical leftism is doomed/dead. If you don't believe me, check back in 2 and a half years.

Dead, I tell you. :mrgreen:

Radical leftism should be dead. Problem is the MAGA’s, the Tucker Carson types keep feeding them validation.


As long as capitalism exists there will be people who are critical of it, even if the MAGA/WN/WS bloc were to fade into oblivion.

Correct. I was not thinking about the socialist and communist radical left but the woke type since that is what is being discussed in this thread.


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blitzkrieg
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29 Jan 2022, 8:00 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Let me give you some advice.

Comparing "Wokeness" to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews is self defeating because it makes you look like you're a dozen kinds of stupid, and also possibly sanity-impaired.

However- if you put the "Holocaust" aside for a moment and ponder another period of mid twentieth century history- that of the US- you might make some headway.

If you were to compare extreme "wokeness" to the MacCarthy Period in the US in the late Forties/early Fifties then you might be able to build a good case.

If you were to ask "has wokeness become a new kind of McCarthyism?" , and then point to say a teacher who once said something homophobic and then had their career ruined- then compare that to folks whose lives were ruined by Joe McCarthy because twenty years earlier they had a flirtation with Communism as a creed for fifteen minutes- then you might have a strong argument.


Oh, I wasn't comparing them in terms of severity.

In my mind, the comparison is one of physical killing versus identity killing.

Wokeologists identity-murder Christians & religious folk in general - for the most part. Wokeologists identity-murder anything that isn't radical-left in a lot of cases.

I am in no way saying this is anywhere near as bad as the holocaust.

Emotional death versus physical death is not comparable, I realise this.

There is nothing wrong with my sanity, but thank you for the observation.



Last edited by Cornflake on 30 Jan 2022, 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.: Redacted a generalized accusation on a group

League_Girl
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29 Jan 2022, 8:04 pm

cyberdad wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
White suprimists and other bigots will always fight back when they feel oppressed. This is in our history. We have had white flights, angry riots from white suprimists, people have been murdered for trying to fight for equality (people even speculate this is why JF Kennedy was assinated). This is no different than families enabling abusers because it's easier to avoid their bullying and angry rages when you stand up to them. People who enable this stuff are apologists and enablers. Call it gaslighting all you want but this is the truth. .


This is roughly my philosophy as well. The targets of right wing bigots are always the most vulnerable who aren't able to properly defend themselves and secondly who live with victimisation on a daily basis.

I am continually amazed on WP why many Aspies support right wingers? given they see themselves as a discriminated minority. It's not rocket science why right wingers are more likely to be abelists


I am sure many right wingers had left this website because they couldn't take the criticism here from the left and the criticism on Trump. Instead what we are dealing with now are centrists.

Centrists are like a bully is picking on you so you fight back. The centrist thinks you are just as bad as them now.


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29 Jan 2022, 9:22 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
I'll add to that - whilst leftists might worry about some gun-toting, white male loner shooting them, a right-winger is terrified that a trans-person wearing a wig might turn up on their doorstep with an assault rifle.

This is legit' - I have talked to some of these people.

You know this is not helping your both-sides argument?
The leftist here is afraid of something that is a very real threat given the number of right wing mass shootings and hate crimes.
The right winger who thinks trans people are going to shoot up their homes is living in a fantasy world.

Someone who thinks the latter fear is just as valid as the former has a tenuous grasp on reality.

(And this is where I have to disclaim, as a leftist, that I support gun ownership. I think more people on the left should own guns. We have been targets for long enough. Make the state, the police, and the right think twice.)


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blitzkrieg
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29 Jan 2022, 9:29 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
I'll add to that - whilst leftists might worry about some gun-toting, white male loner shooting them, a right-winger is terrified that a trans-person wearing a wig might turn up on their doorstep with an assault rifle.

This is legit' - I have talked to some of these people.

You know this is not helping your both-sides argument?
The leftist here is afraid of something that is a very real threat given the number of right wing mass shootings and hate crimes.
The right winger who thinks trans people are going to shoot up their homes is living in a fantasy world.

Someone who thinks the latter fear is just as valid as the former has a tenuous grasp on reality.

(And this is where I have to disclaim, as a leftist, that I support gun ownership. I think more people on the left should own guns. We have been targets for long enough. Make the state, the police, and the right think twice.)


Okay, so, that's a good point - right wing mass shooters probably are more common than left-wing mass shooters (but they seem more prevalent because of being sensationalised in the media, when in fact, such occurences are very rare, on a population level).

I.e, a few mass shootings a year versus hundreds of millions of people in the United States, for example.

I'll dive into the taboo here (the figurative elephant in the room) and tell you that black people shoot white people regularly, or even physically rape white people, male-on-male rape, male-on-female rape, female-on-female rape.

White Conservatives have reason to be weary. It is not fantasy.



Last edited by blitzkrieg on 29 Jan 2022, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

roronoa79
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29 Jan 2022, 9:30 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Let me give you some advice.

Comparing "Wokeness" to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews is self defeating because it makes you look like you're a dozen kinds of stupid, and also possibly sanity-impaired.

However- if you put the "Holocaust" aside for a moment and ponder another period of mid twentieth century history- that of the US- you might make some headway.

If you were to compare extreme "wokeness" to the MacCarthy Period in the US in the late Forties/early Fifties then you might be able to build a good case.

If you were to ask "has wokeness become a new kind of McCarthyism?" , and then point to say a teacher who once said something homophobic and then had their career ruined- then compare that to folks whose lives were ruined by Joe McCarthy because twenty years earlier they had a flirtation with Communism as a creed for fifteen minutes- then you might have a strong argument.


Oh, I wasn't comparing them in terms of severity.

In my mind, the comparison is one of physical killing versus identity killing.

Wokeologists identity-murder Christians & religious folk in general - for the most part. Wokeologists identity-murder anything that isn't radical-left in a lot of cases.

I am in no way saying this is anywhere near as bad as the holocaust.

Emotional death versus physical death is not comparable, I realise this.

There is nothing wrong with my sanity, but thank you for the observation.

This ignores the millions of religious people who many would characterize as 'wokeologists'.
It is part of the tiresome trend of the right acting like you are attacking religion by not acting like one can use religion as an excuse to discriminate against others (Today it's the queers, yesterday it was black people and Jews. Don't forget).

Leftist Jews, Muslims, pagans, Hindus, and Christians (yes, contrary to what the right says, you can in fact be a Christian and be a leftist) are not working to destroy their own religions.

Fighting discrimination by people who use their faith as an excuse to discriminate is not an attack on that faith. If anything it is saving that faith from trends of hatred which leads moral, open-minded people to forsake those faiths because they actually buy the bs the fundamentalists say about what Christianity has to be.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.
- Thucydides


blitzkrieg
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29 Jan 2022, 9:37 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Let me give you some advice.

Comparing "Wokeness" to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews is self defeating because it makes you look like you're a dozen kinds of stupid, and also possibly sanity-impaired.

However- if you put the "Holocaust" aside for a moment and ponder another period of mid twentieth century history- that of the US- you might make some headway.

If you were to compare extreme "wokeness" to the MacCarthy Period in the US in the late Forties/early Fifties then you might be able to build a good case.

If you were to ask "has wokeness become a new kind of McCarthyism?" , and then point to say a teacher who once said something homophobic and then had their career ruined- then compare that to folks whose lives were ruined by Joe McCarthy because twenty years earlier they had a flirtation with Communism as a creed for fifteen minutes- then you might have a strong argument.


Oh, I wasn't comparing them in terms of severity.

In my mind, the comparison is one of physical killing versus identity killing.

Wokeologists identity-murder Christians & religious folk in general - for the most part. Wokeologists identity-murder anything that isn't radical-left in a lot of cases.

I am in no way saying this is anywhere near as bad as the holocaust.

Emotional death versus physical death is not comparable, I realise this.

There is nothing wrong with my sanity, but thank you for the observation.

This ignores the millions of religious people who many would characterize as 'wokeologists'.
It is part of the tiresome trend of the right acting like you are attacking religion by not acting like one can use religion as an excuse to discriminate against others (Today it's the queers, yesterday it was black people and Jews. Don't forget).

Leftist Jews, Muslims, pagans, Hindus, and Christians (yes, contrary to what the right says, you can in fact be a Christian and be a leftist) are not working to destroy their own religions.

Fighting discrimination by people who use their faith as an excuse to discriminate is not an attack on that faith. If anything it is saving that faith from trends of hatred which leads moral, open-minded people to forsake those faiths because they actually buy the bs the fundamentalists say about what Christianity has to be.


Okay, I agree that you are correct in a wider context - not all wokeologists are discriminatory. I am speaking to a specific sub-category of wokeologists here, who think that being atheist makes them superior in some way and that religious people are stupid people.

As a Christian leftist, I have experienced this over & over, personally.



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29 Jan 2022, 10:57 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Centrists are like a bully is picking on you so you fight back. The centrist thinks you are just as bad as them now.


Centrists are the new right.