Page 1 of 21 [ 328 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 21  Next

QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,843

14 May 2022, 1:34 pm

So the part where Putin is wrong pretty much follows from his own words. Even if it is "special military operation to denazify Ukraine", why would it be a business of one country to set any "operations" to alter the internal politics of the other country. Whether or not Ukraine's internal regime can be described as nazi is a moot point because its not Putin's business.

However, the part where the west is wrong is the very same thing: they get into the internal affairs between former soviet union. So just like its none of Putin's business if Ukraine is nazi, it is similarly none of West's business if Putin does anything wrong. So just like Putin is making a mistake by "denazifying" Ukraine, the West is making a mistake by interfering in something internal to former soviet union.

So as you see it is a double standard. A west is allowed to interfere and Putin isn't. If interfering in internal affairs is wrong, it should be wrong for everyone, not just for Putin.

Also Putin wanting to denazify Ukraine is similar to America wanting to bring democracy to Iraq. In both cases one country goes to internal affairs of the other country. So why is it Putin's denazification of Ukraine was condemned more harshly than American bringing democracy to Iraq? Sure, America was also condemnded for bringing democracy. But the condemnation was not as widespread and there were no sanctions. How come?

So now you see the double standard? I think the reason for the double standard is that Russia lost the cold war. Well, that is precisely what drives Putin. Nobody likes to be a loser. So Putin is trying to undo the fact that Russia lost the cold war.

And also look at this analogy. Putin can set a "special operation" to alter what he doesn't like in Ukraine, yet Ukraine can't set a "military operation" to alter what it doesn't like in Russia. Why? Because Russia is above Ukraine within the internal social ladder of former Soviet republics. Similarly, America can bring democracy to Iraq while Putin can't denazify Ukraine because America is above in social ladder to Russia. So I understand why Ukrainians would be offended by being below Russia in a social ladder. But I also understand why Russians are offended by being below Americans in a social ladder. So while you are trying to help out the Ukrainians to deal with their inferiority to Russia, why not also help Russians deal with their inferiority to America? Maybe if Russian inferiority to America can be dealt with, then they won't be so much driven to keep Ukraine inferior to them.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 81,945
Location: Queens, NYC

14 May 2022, 1:42 pm

Nope….the Nazi thing pertaining to Ukraine is false propaganda. Russia just wanted to justify what really is a simple, old-fashioned invasion meant to acquire territory, and to create a “Great Russia.” Russia is under the impression that Ukrainians are really “breakaway Russians.”

Ukraine is just defending itself from invasion.



SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 812
Location: China

14 May 2022, 1:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Nope….the Nazi thing pertaining to Ukraine is false propaganda.

As real as Iraq's chemical weapons.


_________________
I use English with the help of translation software and apologize for all possible misunderstandings.

The 'skinned wolf' is actually a type of fish

Find communicators about interests please PM me


PhosphorusDecree
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 May 2016
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,638
Location: Yorkshire, UK

14 May 2022, 1:51 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Nope….the Nazi thing pertaining to Ukraine is false propaganda. Russia just wanted to justify what really is a simple, old-fashioned invasion meant to acquire territory, and to create a “Great Russia.” Russia is under the impression that Ukrainians are really “breakaway Russians.”

Ukraine is just defending itself from invasion.


I mean, the clue ought to be that the President of Ukraine is Jewish....


_________________
"Your silence speaks volumes to your interest, so I'll keep talking about this a lot."


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 54,954
Location: Stendec

14 May 2022, 1:51 pm

QFT wrote:
. . . just like its none of Putin's business if Ukraine is nazi, it is similarly none of West's business if Putin does anything wrong.  So just like Putin is making a mistake by "denazifying" Ukraine, the West is making a mistake by interfering in something internal to former soviet union. . .
Wrong on both counts.

1. No one should stand by and watch a bully attacking his victims, and Putin is the bully in all this.

2. Since the former Soviet Union no longer exists, there is nothing internal to it.

This war is a land grab by Putin, who is attempting to justify his actions by also attempting to gaslight the world through the DARVO method -- Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.  That you may have succumbed to this tactic implies that your "facts" and opinions in this matter are invalid, and that no one should take your point of view seriously.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,843

14 May 2022, 1:55 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Nope….the Nazi thing pertaining to Ukraine is false propaganda.


I never said I agree with it, just like I never said that I didn't. Because ultimately, whether that assertion is true or not, is a moot point. The part that is not moot is whether or not one country is allowed to set up special operations in the other country if the other country does something wrong:

--- If the answer is yes, then the logical conclusion is that the country is allowed to act on a false allegations too: after all, nobody is guaranteed not to make mistakes. So part of being in a position of power is the fact that one can act on mistaken allegations, such as thinking Ukraine is nazi when it isn't, or thinking Iraq has chemical weapons when it doesn't.

--- If the answer is no, then the logical conclusion is that the country can not act on any of those allegations. So "even if Ukraine was Nazi" Putin still shouldn't do anything since its not his country. But then by the same token, America also wouldn't be able to do anything in Iraq either

Now the double standard comes in the fact that this question is answered differently for Russia and for America. For America the answer is "sometimes yes" or "maybe no", while in Putins case it is "definite resounding no". Why is Russia below America?!



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,843

14 May 2022, 2:00 pm

Fnord wrote:
1. No one should stand by and watch a bully attacking his victims, and Putin is the bully in all this.


But that is the exact point Putin is making too. When Putin calls Ukrainians nazi, he claims that some of the Ukrainians are bullying other Ukrainians and he is saving them from bullies.

Sure, Putin totally misinterpretted the whole thing. But people are not responsible for the reality, people are only responsible for their interpretation of reality. Since nobody has a direct access to reality.

So the real question is: if you *interpret* someone to be a bully, are you allowed to stand up or not?

--- If the answer is yes, then Putin is allowed to stand up to some people he perceives as bullies in Ukraine

--- If the answer is no, then the west shouldn't stand up to Russia either.

Fnord wrote:
2. Since the former Soviet Union no longer exists, there is nothing internal to it.


But still: it is between Russia and Ukraine. Since Putin didn't attack any other countries, its not the business of other countries to get involved.

Other countries getting involved when they see Putin bullying Ukraine is logically similar to Putin getting involved when he perceives some citizens of Ukraine to be bullying other ones.



SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 812
Location: China

14 May 2022, 2:06 pm

QFT wrote:
I never said I agree with it, just like I never said that I didn't. Because ultimately, whether that assertion is true or not, is a moot point. The part that is not moot is whether or not one country is allowed to set up special operations in the other country if the other country does something wrong:

--- If the answer is yes, then the logical conclusion is that the country is allowed to act on a false allegations too: after all, nobody is guaranteed not to make mistakes. So part of being in a position of power is the fact that one can act on mistaken allegations, such as thinking Ukraine is nazi when it isn't, or thinking Iraq has chemical weapons when it doesn't.

--- If the answer is no, then the logical conclusion is that the country can not act on any of those allegations. So "even if Ukraine was Nazi" Putin still shouldn't do anything since its not his country. But then by the same token, America also wouldn't be able to do anything in Iraq either

Now the double standard comes in the fact that this question is answered differently for Russia and for America. For America the answer is "sometimes yes" or "maybe no", while in Putins case it is "definite resounding no". Why is Russia below America?!

Basically agree. this part.
War is only one of the most intense manifestations of this type of conflict. A more common practice is sanctions.


_________________
I use English with the help of translation software and apologize for all possible misunderstandings.

The 'skinned wolf' is actually a type of fish

Find communicators about interests please PM me


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,901
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

14 May 2022, 2:21 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
I never said I agree with it, just like I never said that I didn't. Because ultimately, whether that assertion is true or not, is a moot point. The part that is not moot is whether or not one country is allowed to set up special operations in the other country if the other country does something wrong:

--- If the answer is yes, then the logical conclusion is that the country is allowed to act on a false allegations too: after all, nobody is guaranteed not to make mistakes. So part of being in a position of power is the fact that one can act on mistaken allegations, such as thinking Ukraine is nazi when it isn't, or thinking Iraq has chemical weapons when it doesn't.

--- If the answer is no, then the logical conclusion is that the country can not act on any of those allegations. So "even if Ukraine was Nazi" Putin still shouldn't do anything since its not his country. But then by the same token, America also wouldn't be able to do anything in Iraq either

Now the double standard comes in the fact that this question is answered differently for Russia and for America. For America the answer is "sometimes yes" or "maybe no", while in Putins case it is "definite resounding no". Why is Russia below America?!

Basically agree. this part.
War is only one of the most intense manifestations of this type of conflict. A more common practice is sanctions.

Well I don't see a major difference between what Russia is doing to Ukraine and the US did to Iraq, except that Russia is apparently trying to annex parts of Ukraine. But the outcome is the same. Hundreds of thousands died in Iraq, at least one city was wiped out (Fallujah) and ultimately nothing concrete was achieved (although I've even been told by a non-American on WP that the situation was different because Saddam Hussein was such a brutal dictator). But I'm ashamed of what the US did there, and I've said before that as an American I am in favor of supporting the Ukrainian people in this time of distress but I have a hard time feeling like one of the "good guys" in this war.

Having said this though, I have essentially no tolerance for Putin's apologists. A couple of weeks ago I had to sit next to one of them and listen to him go on throughout the meal about how important it is to understand Putin's point of view in this situation. None of it matters and it makes me sick.


_________________
My WP story


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,376
Location: Poland

14 May 2022, 2:23 pm

What "both sides are wrong"?
Are you claiming Ukrainians are wrong to defend themselves from a brutal invasion?
WTF?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,376
Location: Poland

14 May 2022, 2:25 pm

MaxE wrote:
how important it is to understand Putin's point of view in this situation.
It's important in order to predict his next move.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 54,954
Location: Stendec

14 May 2022, 2:28 pm

magz wrote:
What "both sides are wrong"?  Are you claiming Ukrainians are wrong to defend themselves from a brutal invasion?  WTF?
Apparently, he may have misinterpreted the facts and/or ignored key elements, thus reaching an invalid conclusion.

"Blaming both sides" involves holding the victim responsible for being attacked.

Putin is bullying Ukraine through the use of military force to annex land and resources for which it has no legal claim.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,843

14 May 2022, 2:32 pm

magz wrote:
What "both sides are wrong"?
Are you claiming Ukrainians are wrong to defend themselves from a brutal invasion?
WTF?


I am saying America and Nato are wrong for interfering in Russia-Ukraine business

Look at this parallel:

--- Russia interferes in Ukraine business because it sees itself as more powerful than Ukraine

--- America/West is interfering in Russia/Ukraine business because they see themselves as more powerful than Russia

So the first point is what insults Ukraine while the second point is what insults Russia



SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 812
Location: China

14 May 2022, 2:32 pm

MaxE wrote:
Having said this though, I have essentially no tolerance for Putin's apologists. A couple of weeks ago I had to sit next to one of them and listen to him go on throughout the meal about how important it is to understand Putin's point of view in this situation. None of it matters and it makes me sick.

Due to a particular environment I'm in (there are quite a variety of views here), I can constrainedly (and have to) tolerate many different kinds of standard.
And I don't have absolute confidence in "how correct the standards I'm using".

By contrast, I am less tolerant of not applying the same standards to all events.


_________________
I use English with the help of translation software and apologize for all possible misunderstandings.

The 'skinned wolf' is actually a type of fish

Find communicators about interests please PM me


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,376
Location: Poland

14 May 2022, 2:40 pm

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
What "both sides are wrong"?
Are you claiming Ukrainians are wrong to defend themselves from a brutal invasion?
WTF?


I am saying America and Nato are wrong for interfering in Russia-Ukraine business

Look at this parallel:

--- Russia interferes in Ukraine business because it sees itself as more powerful than Ukraine

--- America/West is interfering in Russia/Ukraine business because they see themselves as more powerful than Russia

So the first point is what insults Ukraine while the second point is what insults Russia

How about: the West "interfereres with Ukraine/Russia business" because Ukraine keeps asking the international community (not just the West) for help?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,807
Location: temperate zone

14 May 2022, 2:45 pm

What do you mean by "both sides"?

Ukraine vs Russia?

Ukraine is wrong for defending itself?????

If by both sides you mean "the US vs Russia", then I, and most Americans have long ago disowned our Country's invasion of Iraq. Even die hard GOP W supporters have all gone over to Trump and thus disown our invasion. So saying that Russia is no different than the US when the US did something that Americans themselves regret then youre just further crucifying Putin.

If Ukraine harbored a terrorist who sent hijacked airliners into Russian skyscrapers and killed thousands of Russian civilians then...Putin might have been justified because his invasion would have been provoked. Like the US invasion of Afghanistan was arguably justified because it was provoked. Trouble is that once we got to Afghanistan we didnt know what to do their besides try to kill Ben Ladin.