War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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magz
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17 May 2022, 12:30 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:

I only mention the EU because a particular member of NATO makes me wonder if its purpose is always so credible.

Turkey?

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magz
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17 May 2022, 12:38 pm

Fnord wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.

The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic.

Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends.

The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.

EU has political and economical sense independent from external threats. It's more a new approach to the troublesome history of Europe itself, an idea of ascending from past conflicts, open the borders instead of moving them and build the future on cooperation, shared values and common interests (and bureaucracy...)

NATO is a strictly defensive military alliance, formed as a reaction to Soviet threat and now renewed in reaction to Russian agression.

The two are very different projects, even if they share several of their member states.

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SkinnedWolf
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17 May 2022, 12:40 pm

magz wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

I only mention the EU because a particular member of NATO makes me wonder if its purpose is always so credible.

Turkey?

er...Turkey is indeed an awkward member.

But my first reaction was whether it would be so acceptable to support the most influential of the "full sovereign" countries to preside over an encirclement of another "full sovereign" country.

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Fnord
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17 May 2022, 12:46 pm

magz wrote:

. . . The two are very different projects, even if they share several of their member states.

Very different, but with "Mutual Support" as part of their foundations.

magz
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17 May 2022, 12:49 pm

Turkey is awkward and sometimes troublesome, but on the military level, they are a very valuable ally.
First thing they did after Feb 24, they closed Bosphorus strait for military vessels, so Russia could not reinforce their Black Sea fleet with ships from elsewhere. They did it based on a treaty from the 1930s, legally without entering the conflict.

If you mean USA behaving like a bully, they do it outside of NATO. NATO is strictly defensive. Outside of the policy of coordinated defense, member states can also join/form other alliances and/or take unilateral military actions and it's considered not NATO's business.
So, most of the US troops all over the world are not considered NATO forces.

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QFT
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17 May 2022, 1:20 pm

Fnord wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.

Well, *even if* Russia was a problem, it is not the only country that is a problem. What about Iran or North Korea? So why is there an organization, NATO, with sole purpose JUST to oppose Russia and not any of those other countries?

So maybe Putin is right in being offended that Russia is being discriminated against. Because it certainly looks that way.

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17 May 2022, 1:28 pm

QFT wrote:

Fnord wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.

The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic. Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends. The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.

Well, *even if* Russia was a problem, it is not the only country that is a problem. What about . . .

What-about-ism again? Try forming an argument based on relevant facts and logical reasoning instead, and leave these fallacious derailing methods at the pub, okay?

:roll:

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17 May 2022, 1:33 pm

Fnord wrote:

QFT wrote:

Fnord wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.

The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic. Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends. The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.

Well, *even if* Russia was a problem, it is not the only country that is a problem. What about . . .

What-about-ism again? Try forming an argument based on relevant facts and logical reasoning instead, and leave these fallacious derailing methods at the pub, okay?

:roll:

This is a logical reasoning. If entity A is worse than entity B yet they have an organization to oppose entity B but not entity A, this shows that there is an unfair bias against entity B.

magz
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17 May 2022, 1:33 pm

QFT wrote:

What about Iran or North Korea?

Heavy sanctions on both, American military bases next to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ted_States

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QFT
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17 May 2022, 1:36 pm

magz wrote:

QFT wrote:

What about Iran or North Korea?

Heavy sanctions on both, American military bases next to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ted_States

But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.

And speaking of US military bases, why doesn't Russia put military bases next to other countries (and if it did there would be a heavy opposition)? See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?

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17 May 2022, 1:39 pm

QFT wrote:

magz wrote:

QFT wrote:

What about Iran or North Korea?

Heavy sanctions on both, American military bases next to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ted_States

But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.

Mixed pronouns. Please clarify.

magz
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17 May 2022, 1:42 pm

QFT wrote:

But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.

It reflects the scale of the threat and the ability of the threatned to organize themselves.

QFT wrote:

And speaking of US military bases, why doesn't Russia put military bases next to other countries (and if it did there would be a heavy opposition)? See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?

They do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ses#Russia

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Fnord
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17 May 2022, 1:43 pm

QFT wrote:

See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?

Cry us a river.

"It's not fair!" is usually spoken by those on the losing end of a conflict or contest, and who have no other recourse than to lamely question the fairness of that conflict or contest.

Bullies also cry "It's not fair" when they are told to stop beating up their victims.

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17 May 2022, 1:50 pm

magz wrote:

QFT wrote:

But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.

It reflects the scale of the threat and the ability of the threatned to organize themselves.

The scale of a threat from Iran and North Korea is greater. So if they think Russia is a greater threat that shows a bias against Russia.

magz wrote:

QFT wrote:

They do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ses#Russia

The only country that Russia has military base at that is NOT part of former Soviet Union is Syria. And look at how everyone is angry at Russia for that.

On the other hand, USA has plenty of military bases on the other end of the globe, and they aren't angry at the USA nearly as much.

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17 May 2022, 1:54 pm

Fnord wrote:

QFT wrote:

See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?

[color=black]Cry us a river.

"It's not fair!" is usually spoken by those on the losing end of a conflict or contest, and who have no other recourse than to lamely question the fairness of that conflict or contest.

Well, the people on the losing side are right. Losers are treated unfairly. That is one more reason why the losing side needs to "undo" its loss -- hence Putin trying to "undo" the fact that he lost the cold war.

Fnord wrote:

Bullies also cry "It's not fair" when they are told to stop beating up their victims.

Its a bit ironic to mix the label of a loser together with the label of a bully.

People that use the word "loser" in a derogatory way are usually bullies. People who use the word bully in derogatory way are usually opposed to bullies. So if you are using both of those terms in derogatory way at the same time it makes it seem like you have a double standard and alternate between the two mindsets.

SkinnedWolf
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17 May 2022, 1:54 pm

QFT wrote:

Fnord wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.

Not so familiar with Iran. But dealing with North Korea does not require “one organization.”
North Korea's southern neighbor, South Korea, has a U.S. military presence. And China, North Korea's northern border, is always on guard.
North Korea's army will not be able to invade either.

And North Korea has no record of foreign invasions to refer to, other than having a civil war with their own nation. Russia has a very poor record.

But we don't have two pieces of bread huge enough to sandwich Russia.
On the contrary, many of the surrounding countries have their own military powers that are insignificant compared to Russia's.

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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 17 May 2022, 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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