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ironpony
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02 Jul 2022, 6:04 pm

Well one thing I don't understand about this issue is, before the American government had the power over all states when it comes to abortion, right...

But just a few months ago, I remember there was a controversy of Texas making it a law that you had to get one within six weeks of getting pregnant or the right to an abortion expires.

So how was Texas able to do that just a few months ago, if the federal goverment had all the power of the state when it came to abortion?



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02 Jul 2022, 6:10 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:

No, this is how YOU are choosing to misrepresent AsPartOfMe’s argument.

No one has stated that abortion will make everything better. It could make an awful situation a little bit better for victims, though.

I'm misrepresenting nothing. I'm just trying to get some clarity. I don't dispute that having to testify against an abuser can be traumatizing. But what everyone has said so far has done nothing but point out that making an accusation is traumatizing, suuggesting that children cannot be called upon to so much as even identify their abuser in the courtroom. You may not realize it yet, but the idea of sparing children "trauma" under these circumstances is antithetical to bringing abusers to justice. Is your intent really to give abusers blanket permission to keep having sex with kids? If NOT, then the logical conclusion is that any trauma a victim might face is irrelevant in the face of bringing abusers to justice. The reasoning I'm getting from others here, following everything to its conclusion, is abusers can declare open season on children without fear of prosecution because a) they can just abort the baby, and b) prosecutors are too afraid of traumatizing children by having them identify their abusers. Why not just take child abuse and age of consent laws off the books for all the good they do? None of this makes sense to me.


Victims can have abortions and testify if they are able to. (They won’t always be able to. Being a victim of child abuse does not come with a list of requirements and responsibilities.) Getting an abortion doesn’t change any of that…at all.

Maybe you would understand better if you were a survivor.

“The reasoning I'm getting from others here, following everything to its conclusion, is abusers can declare open season on children without fear of prosecution”

Slippery slope fallacy. Your conclusion is not based on reality. This also has nothing to do with abortion.


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02 Jul 2022, 6:23 pm

This 10-year-old girl is a victim. That’s the bottom line.

She shouldn’t be forced to testify in front of a scrutinizing public. It’s not morally right. She shouldn’t be used as a political symbol.



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02 Jul 2022, 6:29 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
This 10-year-old girl is a victim. That’s the bottom line.

She shouldn’t be forced to testify in front of a scrutinizing public. It’s not morally right. She shouldn’t be used as a political symbol.


To be fair, I think this is a really hard concept for people to understand. People really need to try to see things from the victim’s point of view to relate, I think.

If a victim can (and is willing to) testify, that’s great, but if not, that’s okay, too. She doesn’t owe us anything.


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02 Jul 2022, 6:48 pm

The person who should be up for scrutiny is the person who impregnated the 10-year-old girl.



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02 Jul 2022, 6:56 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The person who should be up for scrutiny is the person who impregnated the 10-year-old girl.


That’s a thought!

Also, pushing aside the extreme distastefulness of the topic and the deeper moral concerns which dictate that this is a bad idea how would people go about pushing victims to testify? Would there be fines and penalties for victims and their families if they refused? It would be a logistics nightmare.

Victims should have the choice to testify or not. Adults who know about the situation should report it, however. For those who are mandated reporters, it’s required. All adults should be required to report IMO, but that’s a different topic.


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02 Jul 2022, 8:02 pm

On Monday three days after the Supreme Court issued its groundbreaking decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, Dr. Caitlin Bernard, an Indianapolis obstetrician-gynecologist, took a call from a colleague, a child abuse doctor in Ohio.


This has clearly been reported to authorities.
OP, you suggested that the child tolerated this without telling anyone.
You gave an unnecessarily graphic illustration of the fact it could have gone on for six months.
Your post also suggests she wouldn't have conceived if she had told someone sooner.

You're blaming the victim, regardless of anything you say to the contrary.

The child was referred by a child abuse doctor, meaning it has been reported.
It's already in the hands of social services.
She was only six weeks pregnant - meaning she conceived roughly four weeks ago.
She wouldn't have even tested positive until two weeks ago.
She's managed to tell someone and get help in this short span of time despite the trauma.

Whatever happens in the criminal case (most likely against a family member, including minor brothers or cousins), is none of our business because of privacy laws.

This child might already live in foster care and not even have a family.

There's no use in speculating her circumstance.
All that matters is she is offered dignity, support, and privacy during this horrible time.
I'm sure that will involve a thorough criminal investigation.

End story.


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02 Jul 2022, 9:04 pm

AngelRho wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
As Ohio restricts abortions, 10-year-old girl travels to Indiana for procedure
Quote:
On Monday three days after the Supreme Court issued its groundbreaking decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, Dr. Caitlin Bernard, an Indianapolis obstetrician-gynecologist, took a call from a colleague, a child abuse doctor in Ohio.

Hours after the Supreme Court action, the Buckeye state had outlawed any abortion after six weeks. Now this doctor had a 10-year-old patient in the office who was six weeks and three days pregnant.

Could Bernard help?

Indiana lawmakers are poised to further restrict or ban abortion in mere weeks. The Indiana General Assembly will convene in a special session July 25 when it will discuss restrictio ns to abortion policy along with inflation relief.

But for now, the procedure still is legal in Indiana. And so the girl soon was on her way to Indiana to Bernard's care.

While Indiana law did not change last week when the Supreme Court issued its groundbreaking Dobbs decision, abortion providers here have felt an effect, experiencing a dramatic increase in the number of patients coming to their clinics from neighboring states with more restrictive policies.

Since Friday, the abortion clinics where Dr. Katie McHugh, an independent obstetrician-gynecologists works have seen “an insane amount of requests” from pregnant people in Kentucky and Ohio, where it is far more difficult to get an abortion.

Ok...and how many years in prison is the little girl's abuser having to serve? I don't like the idea of murdering a child even in the case of rape because no human being has any choice or control over how they're conceived. But if that's going to be used as a justification for abortion, then someone has to be punished for it.

I don't know the specifics of Ohio's law other than it's a 6 weeks ban. A rational abortion ban has to allow for saving the life of the mother. I'd say at 10 years old it's a pretty serious risk to the life of the mother. And...I repeat...whoever impregnated her must receive the severest penalty reasonably possible, and I wouldn't rule out the death penalty.

I find it terribly disturbing that there is so much of a push toward abortion as relief from sexual assault. I don't have a problem with removing the consequences for the victim. But it does make it easier to abuse young girls. You can groom a young girl, have "consensual" sex with her, and continue to do so indefinitely as long as you don't get caught. If she falls pregnant, not a big deal. Just get an abortion. I'd say give her the abortion but make it mandatory to report it to law enforcement so the abuser will be brought to justice.

I doubt a pedo cares about the consequences to the victim, just satisfying his depravity.

I have no idea the status of the investigation but I doubt something like this is being ignored.

Any investigation of the rape of a 10-year-old is going to be complicated by the question of do you want the child to go through the trauma of identifying her attacker and having her describe what happened to her.

Whether one wants the child to relive trauma is irrelevant. That's the worst excuse I've ever heard for allowing abusers to continue abusing children.

Trauma just isn't an excuse. What you're saying, and I truly hope you don't intend to say this, is that it's perfectly acceptable for abusers to keep abusing children because the prosecution would traumatize children. Surely you don't find that acceptable! Abusers have to be locked up, and not allowed to abuse one child after another after another after another. It's like...ok, we have laws to prosecute child abusers. But we're just going to pretend older kids and adults aren't diddling little 10-year old girls because that's just gonna get complicated. If she gets pregnant, no big deal. Just abort the baby, everything will be fine.

That's exactly right. Everything will be fine! That's exactly what child abusers want you to think. Abort the baby, sweep the crime under the rug. There ARE laws, but we don't have to worry about them because nobody wants to traumatize the child. Nobody's gonna enforce the laws. So open season on little kids!

Is this SERIOUSLY how we see it?

I am saying the family might not let the girl cooperate with the investigation for the purpose of avoiding retraumatizing
her. A rape kit is optional. No ID, No evidence, the rapist gets away with it.


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ironpony
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02 Jul 2022, 11:57 pm

Well it seems that before Roe vs. Wade, everyone was having sex and still living fine before then. So is it really that bad, if it it's pushed back to the decision of the states, where as before 1972, everyone was still living fine it seems, and still got by?



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03 Jul 2022, 12:07 am

ironpony wrote:
Well it seems that before Roe vs. Wade, everyone was having sex and still living fine before then. So is it really that bad, if it it's pushed back to the decision of the states, where as before 1972, everyone was still living fine it seems, and still got by?


It's fair to say that everyone was "living fine before then" so long as one chooses to ignore everyone who wasn't. Distance might make it easier for you to ignore those people but that doesn't mean them or their struggles didn't exist.

It seems a bit like survivor's bias to make the claim you've made, everyone for whom it seems to have worked out fine for has had decades to get their lives back together in order to be judged that way. You managed to recover from that is not the same as well, that was no problem at all, ever.

The girl in this case, supposing she doesn't die from childbirth will end up being used as an example of someone for whom everything worked out fine, ignoring whatever hardships were needlessly imposed upon her with everything turned out fine as the dishonest cope used to ignore her suffering.

Why is her suffering ignored? Because a clump of cells is legally more entitled to control access to her flesh then she herself is. She can't interfere with it's access but the legal norm is that it's existence prevents her from arranging medical care to have it removed.

The real shame is that the people who advocate for forced pregnancies aren't the ones forced to physically deal with the burdens resulting from their legal preferences.


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03 Jul 2022, 12:44 am

Maybe we should roll back time to pre-1929, and cancel the Persons Case too.

If women don't deserve constitutional equality in America, I guess we don't need it here either? / sarc


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03 Jul 2022, 1:01 am

Must say have noticed my thread disappeared , but the point is the same here, but I have to retract about Roe vs Wade, it was a Supreme Court judgement not an amendment to our constitution. But does not mean ,I feel any less strongly about this Courts decision . :(


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03 Jul 2022, 1:04 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well it seems that before Roe vs. Wade, everyone was having sex and still living fine before then. So is it really that bad, if it it's pushed back to the decision of the states, where as before 1972, everyone was still living fine it seems, and still got by?


It's fair to say that everyone was "living fine before then" so long as one chooses to ignore everyone who wasn't. Distance might make it easier for you to ignore those people but that doesn't mean them or their struggles didn't exist.

It seems a bit like survivor's bias to make the claim you've made, everyone for whom it seems to have worked out fine for has had decades to get their lives back together in order to be judged that way. You managed to recover from that is not the same as well, that was no problem at all, ever.

The girl in this case, supposing she doesn't die from childbirth will end up being used as an example of someone for whom everything worked out fine, ignoring whatever hardships were needlessly imposed upon her with everything turned out fine as the dishonest cope used to ignore her suffering.

Why is her suffering ignored? Because a clump of cells is legally more entitled to control access to her flesh then she herself is. She can't interfere with it's access but the legal norm is that it's existence prevents her from arranging medical care to have it removed.

The real shame is that the people who advocate for forced pregnancies aren't the ones forced to physically deal with the burdens resulting from their legal preferences.



Yes Ironpony, you need to realize woman can die from pregnancy any pregnancy is a big health risk. The issue at hand is some of the laws being proposed would force a woman to put their life at risk against their will. I don't think youu'd want that for your girlfriend...but like think about if anti abortion laws were passed where you live. what if your gf got pregnant and didn't want to keep the pregnancy, do you think the state should be able to force her to keep it? LIke you have to consider how it effects the people you care about.


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03 Jul 2022, 1:15 am

Jakki,
It was a Supreme Court decision, denying that a woman's right to choice is protected by the 14th Amendment pertaining to privacy rights. Case law is a powerful precedent. That means all Americans are not created equal: Men across America will have the right to sex without parenthood, and women in blue states will have the option of abortion. Women in red states should be able to sue for an infringement of their inalienable rights, and start new "RvW" cases in the future.

I'm hopeful that Ketanji Brown Jackson will help promote equality for all Americans.


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03 Jul 2022, 2:07 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Jakki,
It was a Supreme Court decision, denying that a woman's right to choice is protected by the 14th Amendment pertaining to privacy rights. Case law is a powerful precedent. That means all Americans are not created equal: Men across America will have the right to sex without parenthood, and women in blue states will have the option of abortion. Women in red states should be able to sue for an infringement of their inalienable rights, and start new "RvW" cases in the future.

I'm hopeful that Ketanji Brown Jackson will help promote equality for all Americans.


Thank you Isabella Linton…..! ……


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03 Jul 2022, 3:40 am

So does this mean that americans can still get abortions it's just that they might not have privacy over it?