Separation Of Church and State takes a big hit

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Fnord
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01 Jul 2022, 11:39 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
I still think "Pro-Choice" is the most appropriate name. There are plenty of woman who may not or would never choose to have an abortion, but still strongly feel each woman should have the right to choose for themselves. Pro-Choice does not necessarily mean Pro-Abortion.
You do have a point.

The ones you described are definitely "Pro-Choice", but the ones screaming only for reinstatement of a woman's right to abortion are definitely "Pro-Abortion".

And maybe there are some who truly believe that abortion, the death penalty, and the private ownership of assault weapons should be banned -- they are definitely "Pro-Life".  It is the ones who scream only for an end to abortion that are definitely "Pro-Birth".

Maybe I am splitting this hair too finely, but that is how I see it.


Pro- or anti-legality?
Splitting hairs this way is perfectly legal.

:P



IsabellaLinton
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01 Jul 2022, 11:45 am

The term "Pro-Life" refers to a belief that life begins at conception.
It means that abortion is wrong at any stage, including the day of fertilisation in a test tube or a uterus.

It's not meant to suggest "pro-this-entire-person's-life-after-birth", as their hypocrisy often proves.



Fnord
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01 Jul 2022, 11:47 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
The term "Pro-Life" refers to a belief that life begins at conception.  It means that abortion is wrong at any stage, including the day of fertilisation in a test tube or a uterus.  It's not meant to suggest "pro-this-entire-person's-life-after-birth", as their hypocrisy often proves.

Image
The Pro-Lifer's Hypocrisy



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01 Jul 2022, 2:00 pm

My family is anti-sex education. They don’t think that the school should be teaching about birth control because then (they think) kids will be less likely to abstain.

That’s not what the research shows, but they aren’t interested. If it does not comply with their beliefs, it must be rigged.

Oh well. It gives my brother and I something to laugh about.


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kraftiekortie
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02 Jul 2022, 10:11 am

I don’t believe too many people are “pro-abortion.” I’m not “pro-abortion.” I’m not “pro-surgery” in general. Surgery doesn’t really delight me.

It’s frequently physically harmful for a woman, as well as the obvious psychological problems which would be engendered.

“Pro-choice” is better term for those who are against abortion bans.



Fnord
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02 Jul 2022, 2:41 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
“Pro-choice” is better term for those who are against abortion bans.
Pro-Abortion” and “Pro-Birth” address the opposing views accurately, and without making either mind-set more politically correct than the other. I understand that bureaucracies try to soften and dumb-down language, but couching abortion in PC terms under the “Free Choice” umbrella serves only to distract from what is really going on.

At best, “Pro-Choice” reeks of socialist compromise.



Twilightprincess
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02 Jul 2022, 2:58 pm

I prefer the term “pro-choice” because it emphasizes the fact that women have a choice over what they do with their own body - whether they ever choose to get an abortion or not.

Even though I will probably never get an abortion, I like the idea of having a choice.

This issue has broader philosophical implications, I think, that go beyond abortion.


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02 Jul 2022, 3:09 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The Supreme Court Dealt A Big Blow To The Separation Of Church And State - FiveThirtyEight
Quote:
On Monday, the Supreme Court released an opinion that could erode the separation between church and state. In Kennedy v. Bremerton School District, the court’s conservative majority ruled that a public high school football coach was within his rights to pray at midfield after games. In doing so, the court abandoned a decades-long precedent on how the First Amendment is interpreted.

TRANSCRIPT
The Supreme Court recently ruled that a public high school football coach has a constitutional right to pray on the field after his team’s games. It’s yet another seismic ruling from the court’s six conservative justices this term — and a big blow to the separation of church and state.

This case is about Joe Kennedy, a football coach at a public high school in Bremerton, Washington. For seven years, Kennedy would kneel in prayer on the 50-yard line after games, and students would often join him. First he prayed alone quietly, but then, when players from both teams started gathering around him, he led them all in prayer. When school officials found out this was happening, they told Kennedy he could continue giving motivational speeches only as long as they remained secular, because doing otherwise would give the impression that the school was endorsing a particular faith. Kennedy wouldn’t stop and was placed on paid administrative leave. Eventually, he decided not to renew his contract.

The case is a clash of three parts of the First Amendment. Kennedy’s lawyers argued that offering a private prayer is actually covered by one part of the First Amendment — the right to free speech. They said Kennedy didn’t lose that right just because he was on school property. And they argued that the school shouldn’t ban his religious expression, which according to them is protected under the part of the First Amendment that says people can freely exercise their religion.

But the school says that Kennedy was violating another part of the First Amendment — the part that says the state can’t establish a religion. In the context of public schools, that’s generally interpreted to mean that they and their employees should remain neutral toward religion. They can’t elevate one religion over another. And even though Kennedy wasn’t explicitly requiring his players to pray, there’s a long line of cases where the courts have said that public school employees are not allowed to pressure students into prayer — which was arguably what Kennedy was doing as the team’s coach. At least one student worried that Kennedy wouldn’t play him as much if he didn’t pray.

On its face, the case may not seem groundbreaking, and the court’s decision may be pretty popular. An early June poll by YouGov and The Economist found that 52 percent of Americans think the coach should be able to offer a public prayer. But with this ruling, the justices abandoned a 50-year-old legal test for determining whether the government is violating the First Amendment’s separation of church and state. Instead, they said that cases should be evaluated in light of the historical traditions of the First Amendment — traditions stemming from the late 18th century, when America was a far less religiously diverse nation.


I wonder what he was praying for.

I find the whole thing a bit peculiar to be honest.



kraftiekortie
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02 Jul 2022, 5:28 pm

Religious people in the US sometimes spontaneously pray out of the clear blue sky.

I believe, in this case, the coach wanted to give thanks for the win.



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02 Jul 2022, 6:42 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Religious people in the US sometimes spontaneously pray out of the clear blue sky.

I believe, in this case, the coach wanted to give thanks for the win.


Maybe I should lighten up. After all, the best part of any Super Bowl is when some schmuck (quarterback, goalie, outfielder?) who’s had 10 concussions, incoherently thanks God for the win at the end of the game. It never gets old.

Apparently, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh Super Bowl trophies (or whatever they win - perhaps it’s guns donated by the NRA).


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babybird
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03 Jul 2022, 2:29 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Religious people in the US sometimes spontaneously pray out of the clear blue sky.

I believe, in this case, the coach wanted to give thanks for the win.


It's probably harmless enough. I mean he's not exactly speaking in tongues is he.



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03 Jul 2022, 9:55 am

babybird wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Religious people in the US sometimes spontaneously pray out of the clear blue sky.

I believe, in this case, the coach wanted to give thanks for the win.


It's probably harmless enough. I mean he's not exactly speaking in tongues is he.


Would the bogus act of speaking in tongues be inherently more harmful?

I suppose it could look scary…

Either way, performing religious activities with students is not appropriate.


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babybird
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03 Jul 2022, 10:02 am

I wouldn't agree with a teacher performing any activities outside of the curriculum with a student whether it be religious or otherwise.

It all sounds a bit pied piperish to me.