Trump takes the fifth at New York Deposition

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goldfish21
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11 Aug 2022, 10:08 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Because he's guilty af, duh.


We aren't supposed to make such inferences when a criminal case is at issue.

Something I didn't know until some recent research was that in some situations a witness has to either consistently take the 5th, or forfeits the right to use it at all. I don't know if that rule applied here.

One also never knows if the potential self-incrimination relates to the actual case at issue, or some unidentified potential tangent.


Tangents definitely seem to be involved. Otherwise the FBI would have gone in and grabbed the boxes from where their mole told them they were, instead of turning the whole residence upside down to grab anything they could lay their hands on.

I heard on some news clip that it's standard FBI practice to just take everything and go through it and then return all the stuff that was of no interest. Makes sense - why wouldn't they be thorough?


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kraftiekortie
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11 Aug 2022, 6:42 pm

I wouldn't call the FBI a bunch of liberal bleeding hearts.....

I truly believe Trump's intention was to rule until he died.



Matrix Glitch
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11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In the United States, people are innocent until proven guilty. However that seems to be one of the things that those who currently hold the most political power are trying to change.

Yes, based on the years of investigations, court proceedings etc - they're totally jumping the gun and convicting him without due process. :roll:

He's being called guilty before being proven guilty. And he's not the only one.



Matrix Glitch
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11 Aug 2022, 8:23 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Because he's guilty af, duh.


We aren't supposed to make such inferences when a criminal case is at issue.

Something I didn't know until some recent research was that in some situations a witness has to either consistently take the 5th, or forfeits the right to use it at all. I don't know if that rule applied here.

One also never knows if the potential self-incrimination relates to the actual case at issue, or some unidentified potential tangent.


Tangents definitely seem to be involved. Otherwise the FBI would have gone in and grabbed the boxes from where their mole told them they were, instead of turning the whole residence upside down to grab anything they could lay their hands on.

I heard on some news clip that it's standard FBI practice to just take everything and go through it and then return all the stuff that was of no interest. Makes sense - why wouldn't they be thorough?

They're the ones claiming they were only there to get specific boxes, containing specific material, kept in a specific location. They're the ones claiming they didn't go in to raid and ransack the entire residence. Their actions don't match their claims.



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11 Aug 2022, 8:33 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn't call the FBI a bunch of liberal bleeding hearts.....


I don't think anyone is making that claim, what is being said is that they're acting with bias, which is a very defensible claim to make. A "bleeding heart" is someone who shies away from the more punitive aspects of the law and prefers to rehabilitate and support rather than pursue vengeance and punishment, which doesn't exactly jibe with either the way various law enforcement agencies are going after Trump, or the people cheerleading for them to do so, even dumping the presumption of innocence that is the cornerstone of enlightenment jurisprudence in many cases.


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kraftiekortie
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11 Aug 2022, 8:41 pm

Why would they want to go after Trump? Trump, at times, exemplifies the FBI's conservatism and desire for "law and order."

I'm thinking it's because the FBI feels that Trump is a threat to the existence of the American System.



Dox47
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11 Aug 2022, 9:18 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Why would they want to go after Trump? Trump, at times, exemplifies the FBI's conservatism and desire for "law and order."

I'm thinking it's because the FBI feels that Trump is a threat to the existence of the American System.


Or, Trump was unusually hostile as president to the security state of which the FBI is a part, and they'd rather have a more conventional president in office. Remember 2016, when the FBI was accused of helping Trump with the Comey letter, but was also later revealed to be neck deep in the Russian collusion hoax, which if nothing else demonstrates that the agency has conflicting goals and priorities, likely dependent on who is running various departments within it.

Regardless, "trust us, we're the FBI" isn't going to cut it anymore.


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DW_a_mom
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12 Aug 2022, 12:56 am

Dox47 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Why would they want to go after Trump? Trump, at times, exemplifies the FBI's conservatism and desire for "law and order."

I'm thinking it's because the FBI feels that Trump is a threat to the existence of the American System.


Or, Trump was unusually hostile as president to the security state of which the FBI is a part, and they'd rather have a more conventional president in office. Remember 2016, when the FBI was accused of helping Trump with the Comey letter, but was also later revealed to be neck deep in the Russian collusion hoax, which if nothing else demonstrates that the agency has conflicting goals and priorities, likely dependent on who is running various departments within it.

Regardless, "trust us, we're the FBI" isn't going to cut it anymore.


You know numerous convictions came out of the Russian collusion investigations, right? Foreign operatives, etc. It wasn't correctly summarized and politicized until investigations were complete, but it wasn't a hoax.

The current FBI director was a Trump appointee and loyalist. Hard to imagine he would witch hunt the hand that fed him. But he did take an oath of office, and maybe he really is just trying to do his job.


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cyberdad
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12 Aug 2022, 1:19 am

He must have lost his voice after 4 hours pleading the 5th :lol:

Here's Trump's own words on what he thinks of people who plead the 5th at depositions



One of the greatest liars in the history of the world...yet there's millions of stupid people who put there trust in this man



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12 Aug 2022, 11:11 am

cyberdad wrote:
He must have lost his voice after 4 hours pleading the 5th :lol:

Here's Trump's own words on what he thinks of people who plead the 5th at depositions



One of the greatest liars in the history of the world...yet there's millions of stupid people who put there trust in this man


Trust? Only an idiot trusts any politician.
You vote for the candidate who you believe will do the least amount of damage and hopefully toss you a few useful table scraps.
Yes, I’m a cynic
Yes, I’m a pragmatist
Change my mind


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goldfish21
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12 Aug 2022, 1:25 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In the United States, people are innocent until proven guilty. However that seems to be one of the things that those who currently hold the most political power are trying to change.

Yes, based on the years of investigations, court proceedings etc - they're totally jumping the gun and convicting him without due process. :roll:

He's being called guilty before being proven guilty. And he's not the only one.

It's extremely difficult not to call the guy guilty of many crimes when the evidence of his guilt is public knowledge. Some of it shared by Michael Cohen, some of it for some crimes in audio/video recordings of trump himself committing the crimes etc. Sure, there's value in court proceedings playing out and criminals being Proven guilty for sentencing.. but when the evidence is already public knowledge, why would you not expect people to call him guilty of various crimes? :?


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12 Aug 2022, 1:43 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
It's extremely difficult not to call the guy guilty of many crimes when the evidence of his guilt is public knowledge. Some of it shared by Michael Cohen, some of it for some crimes in audio/video recordings of trump himself committing the crimes etc. Sure, there's value in court proceedings playing out and criminals being Proven guilty for sentencing.. but when the evidence is already public knowledge, why would you not expect people to call him guilty of various crimes?
"A suspect is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law." -- a popular legal maxim of apocryphal origins

However, the Court of Public Opinion is not bound by jurisprudence or random legal maxims.  Here are just some of the publicly-known legal issues with which Mr. Trump is currently faced:

Election Interference
• Fulton county election interference investigation.
• NAACP sues Trump and RNC for trying to overturn election results.

Financial
• Criminal investigation into finances.
• Mary Trump fraud suit.
• Misuse of 2017 inauguration money.
• New York state attorney general investigating Trump Organization for fraud.
• Trump Corporation class-action suit.
• Westchester golf course investigation.

Insurrection / Coup Attempt
• 11 Congress-People suing Trump over January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.
• 7 Capitol police officers suing Trump over January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.
• DC attorney general investigating Trump over January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.
• Representative Swalwell suing Trump and others for January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.

Sexual Misconduct
• E.Jean Carroll defamation suit.

Other
• FBI seized classified records from Mar-a-Lago during search of Trump residence
• Former top Ukraine adviser sues Trump for retaliation.
• Michael Cohen suit.
• Trump Tower assault suit.

There is one, single, most common factor in all of these proceedings: Donald John Trump, former U.S. President.


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cyberdad
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12 Aug 2022, 8:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
However, the Court of Public Opinion is not bound by jurisprudence or random legal maxims.  Here are just some of the publicly-known legal issues with which Mr. Trump is currently faced:

Election Interference
• Fulton county election interference investigation.
• NAACP sues Trump and RNC for trying to overturn election results.

Financial
• Criminal investigation into finances.
• Mary Trump fraud suit.
• Misuse of 2017 inauguration money.
• New York state attorney general investigating Trump Organization for fraud.
• Trump Corporation class-action suit.
• Westchester golf course investigation.

Insurrection / Coup Attempt
• 11 Congress-People suing Trump over January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.
• 7 Capitol police officers suing Trump over January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.
• DC attorney general investigating Trump over January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.
• Representative Swalwell suing Trump and others for January 6 suing Trump over Capitol coup attempt.

Sexual Misconduct
• E.Jean Carroll defamation suit.

Other
• FBI seized classified records from Mar-a-Lago during search of Trump residence
• Former top Ukraine adviser sues Trump for retaliation.
• Michael Cohen suit.
• Trump Tower assault suit.

There is one, single, most common factor in all of these proceedings: Donald John Trump, former U.S. President.[/color]


This tells me that money/status/political clout gets you immunity from prosecution in America. Congratulations, the US is barely much better than Mexico who allows "El Chapo" like criminals to run that country.



cyberdad
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12 Aug 2022, 8:56 pm

Raptor wrote:
Trust? Only an idiot trusts any politician.
You vote for the candidate who you believe will do the least amount of damage and hopefully toss you a few useful table scraps.
Yes, I’m a cynic
Yes, I’m a pragmatist
Change my mind


what do you define as "damage"?
I find a leader who builds his platform on attacking minorities doing plenty of "damage"



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12 Aug 2022, 9:04 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Trust? Only an idiot trusts any politician.
You vote for the candidate who you believe will do the least amount of damage and hopefully toss you a few useful table scraps.
Yes, I’m a cynic
Yes, I’m a pragmatist
Change my mind


what do you define as "damage"?
I find a leader who builds his platform on attacking minorities doing plenty of "damage"

And now he's attacked minorities.
How so, does he not like aunt Jemima pancakes?
Whatev... :roll: :roll: :roll:

F*ck, I cant wait until he beats this rap, gets elected, and investigates the s**t out of Biden and son.
That or he does get sent up the river but President DeSantis does it for him. :twisted:


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Matrix Glitch
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12 Aug 2022, 9:37 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
In the United States, people are innocent until proven guilty. However that seems to be one of the things that those who currently hold the most political power are trying to change.

Yes, based on the years of investigations, court proceedings etc - they're totally jumping the gun and convicting him without due process. :roll:

He's being called guilty before being proven guilty. And he's not the only one.

It's extremely difficult not to call the guy guilty of many crimes when the evidence of his guilt is public knowledge. Some of it shared by Michael Cohen, some of it for some crimes in audio/video recordings of trump himself committing the crimes etc. Sure, there's value in court proceedings playing out and criminals being Proven guilty for sentencing.. but when the evidence is already public knowledge, why would you not expect people to call him guilty of various crimes? :?

Being accused of crimes and being guilty is not the same thing. When he actually ever gets charged with, not to mention actually convicted of, a crime then he will be guilty. Right now he's just at six years of being accused by his enemies.