Dems to Liz Cheney, love you now, disown you later

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ASPartOfMe
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20 Sep 2022, 9:30 am

The Cheney 2024 conundrum

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Liberals who lavish praise on Liz Cheney for her defiance of Donald Trump are making one thing crystal clear: Don’t expect us to support her for president, or any other political office, for that matter.

The Wyoming Republican’s anti-Trump maneuvers have lately belied her conservative policy views — particularly on foreign affairs, an area in which some progressives have managed to align with Trump in slamming her as a warmonger. It could be a big hurdle for Cheney as she considers a 2024 presidential run that would function as a means to block Trump from a return to the White House, something she has said is more important than any policy disagreements with Democrats.

Cheney appealed to Democrats in her primary last month, only to get trounced by a pro-Trump challenger. And her close working relationship with Democrats in probing the Jan. 6 Capitol attack is showing no signs of translating into national crossover appeal. Her approach to global affairs isn’t the only reason she’s getting few Democrats to openly back her for another political office despite her stand against Trump — but it’s a central one.
“I’ve told Liz I couldn’t wait to start disagreeing with her again in public,” joked Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), who’s struck up a close friendship with Cheney stemming from their work on the Jan. 6 select committee. “Liz Cheney has been a great constitutional patriot during this period. But we have a lot of things we disagree on.”

While they hail the 56-year-old Cheney as a hero for what they describe as principled acts of courage in decrying Trump’s hold on her party, Democrats acknowledge that she’s no less of a conservative for doing so. And they’re not blind to the Cheney who vocally backed the Iraq war that her father helped spearhead during his vice presidency, a war now largely viewed as a historic blunder fueled by the neoconservative foreign-policy doctrine to which she also subscribes.

Indeed, Cheney’s alignment with her father, who has also disavowed Trump, continued long past the 2003 invasion of Iraq. She was a leading critic of President Joe Biden’s decision to withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan last year, and has vocally opposed Biden’s efforts to resurrect the 2015 Iran nuclear deal. Liz and Dick Cheney even co-wrote a 2016 book, “Exceptional,” espousing American power on the global stage.

In a speech at the American Enterprise Institute on Monday, Cheney emphasized that she still believes in limited government and a strong national defense, adding she shared conservative concerns about “radical liberalism” and “wokeness.” But she reiterated her belief that “those concerns cannot justify what the Republican Party is doing now.”

The means do not justify the ends. This is how democracies fail. That cannot happen and it must not happen. Stopping this erosion requires men and women of goodwill showing courage and remembering that no office is worth holding if you enable, through your action or your inaction, the dismantling of our Republic,” she said.

Democrats have no regrets about building Cheney up, largely because they don’t expect their voters to support her in any future race. And putting Cheney on a pedestal lends bipartisan credibility to their central case that Trump, who could announce a 2024 presidential run within weeks, is unfit for office.

“I admire her, but when I’m voting for president, I’m voting for someone who shares my economic views and my foreign policy views,” said Rep. Jim McGovern (D-Mass.), the House’s leading proponent of restricting presidential war powers and among the loudest critics of a bloated defense budget.

That may leave Cheney in a political no-man’s-land: Democrats won’t overlook her policy views just because she was a useful foil to Trump, and the vast majority of Republicans despise her for her anti-Trump efforts alone. Conservative commentator Rich Lowry has made the case that a Cheney presidential bid would help Trump by taking votes away from a more viable alternative in a GOP primary, rather than sabotaging the former president himself.

As a purely political matter, I think Democrats are willing to say nice things about Republicans in the moment if it serves their short-term interests, and if they don’t perceive that person to be a future threat. I think they see her that way,” said Scott Jennings, a longtime supporter of the Cheney family and a GOP strategist who worked in the George W. Bush White House.

Even apart from her work on the Jan. 6 select committee, the rise of the populist neo-isolationist foreign policy mantra in the Trump era also complicates Cheney’s appeal. Well before Jan. 6, Cheney was a frequent target of the so-called “America First” foreign policy crowd for her unapologetic Bush-era neoconservatism.

For example, she tried to prevent Trump from withdrawing U.S. troops from Afghanistan and Syria back in 2018, and she expressed disgust that same year when Trump appeared to side with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s denial that his country meddled in the 2016 election. On the flip side, as a candidate, Cheney said she would oppose efforts by then-President Barack Obama to strike Syria.

On the other hand, Cheney’s allies see her as the only viable Republican who can carry the anti-Trump torch in a GOP presidential primary. She’s also a fundraising juggernaut and has better name recognition than other “never-Trump” Republicans. And on foreign policy, she has called out the former president’s more populist maneuvers while showing that she can partner with national security-minded Democrats like Reps. Jason Crow of Colorado and Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts.

GOP lawmakers, particularly those in the House, are keeping their distance from Cheney. But one Republican who is close with her, Rep. Don Bacon of Nebraska, decried the all-or-nothing mentality in his party when it comes to support for the former president.

I don’t think anyone is going to switch parties because of Liz Cheney. I think people should respect and honor her service and the integrity of her work,” said Rep. David Cicilline (D-R.I.).

He added that “in the end, people vote for presidential candidates based on both their integrity and their commitment to democracy, but also on a set of policy views. And I think the Democrats will and should prevail on those.”

Liz Cheney has been useful to the committee not only because of the Republican and Conservative labels but because she is a true Republican Conservative. Her knowledge of who is who in the party has been helpful in deconstructing the insurrection. She has brought the Karl Rove don’t care about niceties, go for the jugular mentality to the investigation. But all parties understand this is a temporary alliance of convenience.

There is not only no permanent place for a neo con but for anybody who does not support the two teams all the time, every time.

Her future is as yet another former Republican officeholder such as Joe Scarborough criticizing the MAGA’s from the outside on MSNBC. It’s not 2002, it’s 2022.


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AngelRho
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21 Sep 2022, 3:53 am

Cheney needs to stop carrying the anti-Trump torch and start worrying about what it’s going to take to actually win an election.

I don’t mean that she should support Trump. I just mean she should find something to campaign on other than simply opposing a candidate.

She doesn’t belong in the Republican Party. She’s a RINO. And until she puts a D next to her name, she’s not going to get Democratic support. Her 15 minutes of fame are long ended. Either run as a Democrat or start a lawn care business. Find something useful to do. Her political career is over.



DW_a_mom
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21 Sep 2022, 5:21 am

AngelRho wrote:
Cheney needs to stop carrying the anti-Trump torch and start worrying about what it’s going to take to actually win an election.

I don’t mean that she should support Trump. I just mean she should find something to campaign on other than simply opposing a candidate.

She doesn’t belong in the Republican Party. She’s a RINO. And until she puts a D next to her name, she’s not going to get Democratic support. Her 15 minutes of fame are long ended. Either run as a Democrat or start a lawn care business. Find something useful to do. Her political career is over.


Issue by issue, her political positions line up squarely with Republican party ideals. How on earth is that being a RINO? She went against the party when her conscious wouldn't let her play along when the party asked her to violate her oath to the constitution. Is loyalty to the party, at all costs, policy and constitution aside, now the test of a true Republican?

The problem is that the later DOES seem to be the rallying cry of the party lately. A political party cannot survive on loyalty to fickle leadership alone. It does actually have to stand for something beyond "whatever makes the liberals sweat" or "whatever keeps us in power." The Cheney's of this world did that, she stood for something. She's a true conservative through and through IMHO. The fact that she can no longer win elections as such does not bode well, going forward, for the character of the Republican party and the voters it is attracting.

She knew the risks she was taking, IMHO. She may have been hoping to save her party, but I can't imagine she was naive enough to believe the odds were good. She should be remembered as having integrity. One of the last who actually did.


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ASPartOfMe
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21 Sep 2022, 5:37 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Issue by issue, her political positions line up squarely with Republican party ideals.

The Republican Party ideals of 1992 or 2002, not the Orbanist Republican party of 2022.

AngelRho wrote:
Cheney needs to stop carrying the anti-Trump torch and start worrying about what it’s going to take to actually win an election.

I don’t mean that she should support Trump. I just mean she should find something to campaign on other than simply opposing a candidate.

She doesn’t belong in the Republican Party. She’s a RINO. And until she puts a D next to her name, she’s not going to get Democratic support. Her 15 minutes of fame are long ended. Either run as a Democrat or start a lawn care business. Find something useful to do. Her political career is over.

In fairness no matter what her party label being her father's daughter dooms her.

Putting a "D" next her name will do nothing. Most of her views are anathema to the leftward moving Democratic party. It would be understood to be a completely insincere stunt.


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DW_a_mom
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21 Sep 2022, 6:02 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Issue by issue, her political positions line up squarely with Republican party ideals.

The Republican Party ideals of 1992 or 2002, not the Orbanist Republican party of 2022.


Her voting record speaks for itself. In 2022.


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ASPartOfMe
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21 Sep 2022, 6:26 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Issue by issue, her political positions line up squarely with Republican party ideals.

The Republican Party ideals of 1992 or 2002, not the Orbanist Republican party of 2022.


Her voting record speaks for itself. In 2022.

Which votes, the hardcore anti-Russia ones, the interventionalist ones, the one to impeach Trump? That last one is the defining feature of the current Republican Party. You are defining what we think the Republican party should be.

Her voting record is neo-conservative.


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21 Sep 2022, 8:29 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
It would be understood to be a completely insincere stunt.

You mean like her career as a Republican politician?

She should just stop pretending and come out as a liberal.

It’s not about opposing Trump.

A candidate’s job is to represent her people. You don’t get elected to “stand on principles,” although that’s a popular campaign slogan. You get elected to serve the interests of your people. You oppose Trump? Fine! Great! But how do your people feel about that? And are you so intent on carrying one torch or another that you lose touch with your base? Cheney lost her way. I bet she’d see more success switching sides.



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21 Sep 2022, 9:31 pm

AngelRho wrote:

It’s not about opposing Trump.


It's completely about opposing Trump.



ASPartOfMe
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21 Sep 2022, 9:49 pm

AngelRho wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It would be understood to be a completely insincere stunt.

You mean like her career as a Republican politician?

She should just stop pretending and come out as a liberal.

It’s not about opposing Trump.

A candidate’s job is to represent her people. You don’t get elected to “stand on principles,” although that’s a popular campaign slogan. You get elected to serve the interests of your people. You oppose Trump? Fine! Great! But how do your people feel about that? And are you so intent on carrying one torch or another that you lose touch with your base? Cheney lost her way. I bet she’d see more success switching sides.


She is no liberal. She did not lose her way. She is the same neo-con she has always been. The Republican voters want something radically different now. She knew that but did want to go along with the change, and they emphatically threw her out for that as she knew they would.


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22 Sep 2022, 4:43 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It would be understood to be a completely insincere stunt.

You mean like her career as a Republican politician?

She should just stop pretending and come out as a liberal.

It’s not about opposing Trump.

A candidate’s job is to represent her people. You don’t get elected to “stand on principles,” although that’s a popular campaign slogan. You get elected to serve the interests of your people. You oppose Trump? Fine! Great! But how do your people feel about that? And are you so intent on carrying one torch or another that you lose touch with your base? Cheney lost her way. I bet she’d see more success switching sides.


She is no liberal. She did not lose her way. She is the same neo-con she has always been. The Republican voters want something radically different now. She knew that but did want to go along with the change, and they emphatically threw her out for that as she knew they would.

Not buying it.

But I do agree that Republican voters want something different. I’m not impressed with either major party right now. Solidarity goes a long way to win elections, and the Republican Party is too fractured to be effective at winning elections. I’m convinced Biden will get another 4 years.

The positive I see is that if the usual trend follows in Congress there will be a majority Republican Congress by 2026. As far as the next Republican presidential candidate goes, I’m convinced he or she probably just started kindergarten this year, so do the math.

Cheney did worse than being unwilling to change direction with her voters. She did worse than simply oppose her own party. She did nothing to improve things. At the end of the day there’s nothing she could claim except that she hates Trump and stood on “principles.” What principles, exactly? How does this make the Republican Party better? RINO’s like Cheney are part of the problem. She didn’t deserve to get re-elected.



ASPartOfMe
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22 Sep 2022, 12:11 pm

AngelRho wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It would be understood to be a completely insincere stunt.

You mean like her career as a Republican politician?

She should just stop pretending and come out as a liberal.

It’s not about opposing Trump.

A candidate’s job is to represent her people. You don’t get elected to “stand on principles,” although that’s a popular campaign slogan. You get elected to serve the interests of your people. You oppose Trump? Fine! Great! But how do your people feel about that? And are you so intent on carrying one torch or another that you lose touch with your base? Cheney lost her way. I bet she’d see more success switching sides.


She is no liberal. She did not lose her way. She is the same neo-con she has always been. The Republican voters want something radically different now. She knew that but did want to go along with the change, and they emphatically threw her out for that as she knew they would.

Not buying it.

But I do agree that Republican voters want something different. I’m not impressed with either major party right now. Solidarity goes a long way to win elections, and the Republican Party is too fractured to be effective at winning elections. I’m convinced Biden will get another 4 years.

The positive I see is that if the usual trend follows in Congress there will be a majority Republican Congress by 2026. As far as the next Republican presidential candidate goes, I’m convinced he or she probably just started kindergarten this year, so do the math.

Cheney did worse than being unwilling to change direction with her voters. She did worse than simply oppose her own party. She did nothing to improve things. At the end of the day there’s nothing she could claim except that she hates Trump and stood on “principles.” What principles, exactly? How does this make the Republican Party better? RINO’s like Cheney are part of the problem. She didn’t deserve to get re-elected.

The republican base is pretty united in what they want the downfall of the elitist “deep state”, as little foreign intervention as possible, “owning the libs”, anti “woke”, two genders/anti “grooming”, anti critical race theory being taught in schools, a strong leader along the lines Putin or Orban. I will call it Trumpism. Where the base might disagree with each other is who would be the best candidate to advance Trumpism. Trump as the founding father of the movement is going to have plenty of support but the question is, is will enough of the base think Trump is too old or too clownish or too stuck in 2020 to give DeSantis the nomination.

Liz Cheney is totally with the base on being anti woke, anti “lib”, anti entitlement programs. Where she against the base is that she is interventionist, she wants to keep the basic system, she thinks having a strongman like Orban as leader is unAmerican.

As the public is only loosely 35 or 40 percent for Trumpism I can see why one would think a Republican could not win the Presidency for decades. The Democrat base is much more fractured then the Republican base. You are underestimating the ability of Democrats to nominate the greater of two evils. If inflation spikes, shortages continue or increase, crime continues to go up, Biden gaffes get somehow worse, COVID spikes and they attempt to put back mitigation measures especially in schools,if party continues courting wokeism they might become the greater evil.

There is all sorts of speculation about Biden stepping down or bring replaced. Lets assume he is nominated. The Harris part of the Biden-Harris ticket is going to matter a lot more then usual. In a regular year the Vice Presidential nominee is the subject of endless media speculation but for voters is an afterthought. This will not be the case in 2024.


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22 Sep 2022, 1:40 pm

The GOP's entire 2020 platform was "whatever Trump wants". Nothing more. Even the guns and fetuses they love so much took a backseat.

I hope the Forward Party can gain some major traction.



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22 Sep 2022, 9:36 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
You are underestimating the ability of Democrats to nominate the greater of two evils.

You mean like Clinton?

When Trump won, I was floored by how much it seemed every candidate, the DNC, EVERYONE cleared out and paved the way for Hillary to win with almost no meaningful opposition. It wasn’t surprising to me at the time because Dems have had cult-like solidarity since before was born. Obama got his two terms, “stolen” right out from under Clinton’s feet. So we’re gonna get it right this time. Hey, nobody run against Clinton this time, now, mmmkay? “Pathetic” doesn’t even begin to describe the Sanders campaign.

But then Trump lost the re-election to Biden, and that’s when it hit me. I’ve been around politicians enough to know that these people aren’t exactly enemies. They just do that for the TV, for the optics. Reality is more like pro-wrestling. Scripted. It’s a gentleman’s game, with the final outcome left up to a vote. Normally, it goes the way everyone expects. But not always.

I don’t believe the vote was stolen from Trump. I know there’s some weirdness that happens with votes, but that’s every election. I believe Trump lost. That was extremely eye-opening to me, and I was, like, how come I couldn’t see it four years ago? Trump lost in states he SHOULD have lost years ago. That’s when it hit me that those states didn’t want Trump—they just wanted Clinton that much less than they wanted Trump. Given a different candidate, they’d vote Dem as expected.

So mentally I had to go back and review everything I knew from local politics and rethink the reality of Clinton’s loss. It was so simple. Democrats never mounted a serious campaign against Clinton because they didn’t know what to do with her. Running against her and risking a win would be political suicide. Nobody wanted to run against Clinton. Nobody wanted to be anywhere near Clinton, much less have their name next to hers on a primary ballot. And this all happened while Trump was spearheading a populist, quasi-conservative movement. People hated Clinton so hard they didn’t mind risking Trump as President.

While I’m sure that wasn’t exactly your point, I don’t take it for granted Dems will vote for the greatest evil, be it Clinton or Trump.

I don’t really buy the hype about Dems not wanting Biden to run again. It’s much easier to win elections running an unopposed incumbent than it is to pick a new winner. Most incumbent parties who have turnover in the primaries lose general elections. Biden will run again and probably win.

I don’t believe Dems aren’t unified. I’d say the Dem party’s greatest risk right now is becoming stagnant, same as what happened with Reps after Dubya. I mean, after Trump and what he represented to a lot of us, the Republican Party literally had NOTHING to offer the White House. And you can’t tell me Dems aren’t already talking about who’s next after Biden. I don’t personally see anyone out there who can compete on the level of Obama, Biden, or Clinton, but whoever it is will have the advantage of a massive media machine to promote them. And none of us will ever hear about any bickering among Dem candidates. I honestly believe Repubs prefer being in the minority and running on mere opposition to Dems and nothing any more meaningful. I’m just gonna ask y’all to wake me up sometime after 2030 IF the Rep party has any decent prospects. I’m not holding my breath in the meantime.