What type of people allow a 5 year old to transition!?
Who needs to make a serious point when we can become hysterical over strawman caricatures of our opponents.
Why, hasn't that happened? Are you so sure?
On what do you base this assumption? The fact that a parent might take significant gender dysphoria seriously isn't the same as having a kneejerk reaction to force any kid who isn't perfectly gender conforming into therapy or more.
Typically, that's conservatives who tend to be more prone to imposing binary gender expectations upon their kids, but I wouldn't make a strawman about conservatives all sending potentially queer kids off to conversion therapy either, because it's not a political matter.
Hell, some of those 'woke' parents didn't become 'woke' until they started taking their kid's issue seriously. Some of those folks were progressives already, but some of them were conservatives who bought the usual talking points until they were given a personal example.
But somehow, it's all the fault of t3h woke for... what exactly?
I'm curious to know your opinion about this case:
https://nypost.com/2019/10/23/texas-jur ... ransition/
Can't imagine being in that man's place.
Perhaps some might have heard of an author named Truman Capote?
I enjoy true crime novels. In 1965, he wrote the book, “In Cold Blood”, about a crime that happened prior to then. He was a talented writer, thorough in his research, talked at length in person with the criminals to such an extent that one is almost able to empathize with these men who committed heinous crimes.
His relevance to this discussion is that, I believe it was in the forward to this book or perhaps one of his other works, he relates a story about his very young childhood in which from his earliest memories (5 years old or younger) he vehemently demands that he is a girl.
This was when being gay was still considered a mental illness.
Why did I mention Truman Capote - because in his own words, as a respected, intelligent, and successful author, he is telling you that he knew he was misgendered from a very young age and this never changed.
I’m sure the medical community will evolve sensible guidelines for how long, persistent, and consistent a person should be before any permanent changes are made but no one else needs to be involved. Especially not people who wish to deny the very existence of this issue. When something goes from closeted to mainstream it will generate a lot of news but it all settles in due time.
The only laws needed are ones to protect the privacy and freedom of the child within the medically determined guidelines.
Truman Capote: very famous writer. Had a tough time because he didn’t fit the “male stereotype” at all.
In 1965, one could still go to jail for being gay in the UK. In the US, gay sex was considered “sodomy,” and could potentially get you arrested for a felony, even if homosexuality itself wasn’t illegal.
I never said they were woke or that they thought I was transgender. I was just making a point that I don't 100% believe in gender stereotypes.
True, I was more so trying to deflect designhusbies (or however you spell it)'s assertion that woke parents would think you are transgender.
I would like to make it clear that you cannot refer to me in responses to other users in a condescending way or any other way other than respectful. This is bullying and intimidation in the knowledge that I'm expressing opinions unfavoured by the majority here. I understand that these opinions might be offensive to some, but they are just my opinions on the topic and I am entitled to them just as anybody else is entitled the theirs. If you find it difficult to address me in a polite way, please refrain from addressing me either directly or indirectly through responding to other users.
Canadian1911
Sea Gull
Joined: 20 Mar 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 227
Location: Getting ready to attack Fort Niagara!
I never said they were woke or that they thought I was transgender. I was just making a point that I don't 100% believe in gender stereotypes.
True, I was more so trying to deflect designhusbies (or however you spell it)'s assertion that woke parents would think you are transgender.
I would like to make it clear that you cannot refer to me in responses to other users in a condescending way or any other way other than respectful. This is bullying and intimidation in the knowledge that I'm expressing opinions unfavoured by the majority here. I understand that these opinions might be offensive to some, but they are just my opinions on the topic and I am entitled to them just as anybody else is entitled the theirs. If you find it difficult to address me in a polite way, please refrain from addressing me either directly or indirectly through responding to other users.
LOL dude, you are literally triggered here. I literally couldn't remember how you spelt your name, and just didn't feel like clicking off the page to find out.
Also, don't fake like you care about respect and decency or anything, when you literally say things without a care in the world if they question the right to exist or to equality of other identities and groups. You can't have it both ways. What you give is what you get.
I never said they were woke or that they thought I was transgender. I was just making a point that I don't 100% believe in gender stereotypes.
True, I was more so trying to deflect designhusbies (or however you spell it)'s assertion that woke parents would think you are transgender.
I would like to make it clear that you cannot refer to me in responses to other users in a condescending way or any other way other than respectful. This is bullying and intimidation in the knowledge that I'm expressing opinions unfavoured by the majority here. I understand that these opinions might be offensive to some, but they are just my opinions on the topic and I am entitled to them just as anybody else is entitled the theirs. If you find it difficult to address me in a polite way, please refrain from addressing me either directly or indirectly through responding to other users.
LOL dude, you are literally triggered here. I literally couldn't remember how you spelt your name, and just didn't feel like clicking off the page to find out.
Also, don't fake like you care about respect and decency or anything, when you literally say things without a care in the world if they question the right to exist or to equality of other identities and groups. You can't have it both ways. What you give is what you get.
I just stated that you can't address me in other tha a respectful way. You might think that my opinions are offenssive to you but that doesn't mean you have the right to attack my person. Thank you very much.
Canadian1911
Sea Gull
Joined: 20 Mar 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 227
Location: Getting ready to attack Fort Niagara!
I just stated that you can't address me in other tha a respectful way. You might think that my opinions are offenssive to you but that doesn't mean you have the right to attack my person. Thank you very much.
You're literally attacking the persons of trans people, and other LGBT+ folk. And, the real issue here is that at no point did I attack your person, you just said that I did. Ironically you are overly sensitive and easily triggered, you can dish it out but you can't take it, considering you're manufacturing some sort of attack on your person that didn't happen in reality.
I just stated that you can't address me in other tha a respectful way. You might think that my opinions are offenssive to you but that doesn't mean you have the right to attack my person. Thank you very much.
You're literally attacking the persons of trans people, and other LGBT+ folk. And, the real issue here is that at no point did I attack your person, you just said that I did. Ironically you are overly sensitive and easily triggered, you can dish it out but you can't take it, considering you're manufacturing some sort of attack on your person that didn't happen in reality.
I'm not disposed to debate it. I'm just telling you that you cannot address me in any other than a respectful way. I will live it at that.
As long as a trans person doesn't mind that I am not trans, and doesn't assume I will scorn him/her/whatever for being trans, then being trans is okay with me. It's when a trans person starts to make assumptions about me---is when I get bothered. I don't have anything against a person being trans, per se.
I don't believe "woke" teachers are "grooming" kids to be trans, or homosexual, or whatever. I believe this concept of "grooming," which people like DeSantis speak about, is a whole bunch of nonsense.
funeralxempire
Veteran
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,534
Location: Right over your left shoulder
Who needs to make a serious point when we can become hysterical over strawman caricatures of our opponents.
Why, hasn't that happened? Are you so sure?
On what do you base this assumption? The fact that a parent might take significant gender dysphoria seriously isn't the same as having a kneejerk reaction to force any kid who isn't perfectly gender conforming into therapy or more.
Typically, that's conservatives who tend to be more prone to imposing binary gender expectations upon their kids, but I wouldn't make a strawman about conservatives all sending potentially queer kids off to conversion therapy either, because it's not a political matter.
Hell, some of those 'woke' parents didn't become 'woke' until they started taking their kid's issue seriously. Some of those folks were progressives already, but some of them were conservatives who bought the usual talking points until they were given a personal example.
But somehow, it's all the fault of t3h woke for... what exactly?
I'm curious to know your opinion about this case:
https://nypost.com/2019/10/23/texas-jur ... ransition/
Can't imagine being in that man's place.
Just to start, the NY Post is a News Corp owned tabloid that I don't consider particularly credible, so I will not be relying solely on their reporting.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/ ... ld-custody
I think the NY Post's reporting is clearly biased, they don't seem to want to even consider the possibility that the father might be mistaken in his perspectives. This seems to be because any other framing would conflict with their ideological positions.
The NY Post makes no attempt to discuss what transitioning for a child of that age means, Vox however includes:
So, to be clear, we're freaking out over long hair, girly clothes and a different name/pronouns.
Just your typical conservative disinformation campaign, which the NY Post is contributing to.
In court testimony, Georgulas said that she would prefer if Luna were not transgender, but she supports her child’s gender identity regardless of her own feelings. “From my knowledge as a pediatrician and also from the research I’ve done, it is better to affirm for the psychological well-being of the child … [doctors recommended] that we affirm the child’s choices, whatever those choices are,” she said.
Meanwhile, Younger made the conservative media circuit rounds, insisting it was Georgulas who was forcing Luna to present as a girl. Luna “presents as a boy with me and [she] presents as a girl with his mom,” Younger told LifeSiteNews, a conservative Christian website, in September. “[She] gets dressed as a boy at [her] mother’s home and [she] comes out to me as a boy. That means that [she’s] comfortable as a boy at [her] mother’s home.” Georgulas and others who have testified have disputed this latter part, saying it was Younger forcing Luna to present as a boy.
Hmm, that's entirely at odds with how the NY Post reports on the story. Is it possible that the tabloid might be acting like a tabloid?
It sounds like Jeffrey Younger has a credibility issue. I'm not sure his claims can be trusted at face-value based on this.
That's not good.
According to a transcript of a July 10, 2018, hearing in the case, Luna’s twin brother, a CPS worker, a therapist, and a pediatrician all attest to Luna’s gender identity as a girl. The medical professionals who have seen Luna have recommended she be affirmed and treated as a girl, and it’s Younger who refuses to accept his child’s gender identity.
In April 2017, Luna asked to be referred to by the name Luna. At age 5, Luna was diagnosed by a qualified professional therapist as having gender dysphoria, distress stemming from a mismatch between her birth sex and her gender identity. Her pediatrician noted that at both her 5-year and 6-year checkups, Luna presented as a girl and has been persistent in her gender identity throughout her childhood.
That's at odds with Younger's claims.
That sounds like child abuse, consistent with his character if the court's findings mentioned earlier are correct.
Glad he clarified that for us since it seems to get ignored.
Under watchful waiting, a prepubescent trans girl like Luna would be forced to maintain short hair, wear stereotypical boy clothes, form friendships with boys her age, maintain her birth name and pronouns under the belief that it’s statistically likely that her dysphoria will desist by the time puberty begins. If Luna’s dysphoria does persist, only then would she be given puberty blockers, so she can mature before making a more permanent decision on hormone treatment.
Political forces opposed to social transitions for children are fond of saying “let kids be kids” — but watchful waiting seems counterintuitive to that goal.
“Watchful waiting is a deceptive term,” said Kelley Winters, a writer and consultant on issues of gender diversity in medical and public policy, told Vox. “There’s nothing neutral. It’s meant to sound effectively neutral, and there’s nothing neutral about forcing trans kids to spend their childhoods in the closet and grow up with absolutely no memories of being authentically present in their entire childhood.”
The approach is based on older statistics that as many as 80 percent of children with gender dysphoria will eventually desist and grow into cisgender adults. But those numbers, according to Safer, are flawed.
“In terms of that desistance 80 percent comment, that’s an old Dutch study where they didn’t ask the blunt question about your gender identity to these kids,” he said. “They kind of danced around the topic with a bunch of other questions and kind of assumed they knew the gender identities, but I don’t know that it shows much of anything. It just shows that 80 percent of kids who answer questions in a stereotypical way, that you think might be associated with gender identity, end up not being transgender. But there’s a lot of bias in the questions.”
At issue is the fact that when the Dutch and Canadian studies were conducted, the official diagnosis for gender-variant kids was “gender identity disorder.” In order to be diagnosed with GID, a child merely had to display cross-gender dress or behavior, regardless of whether they declared themselves to actually be a member of the opposite sex. The effect of this diagnosis is that cisgender gay and lesbian children, who also frequently display cross-gender preferences without declaring themselves to be the opposite gender before puberty, were caught up in the clinicians’ studies and so of course they would “desist” later on.
So, basically, watchful-waiting was always a flawed approach, based on flawed studies. Science marches on.
The preferred approach involves letting the kid be themselves. Apparently this is abuse in the eyes of someone like Younger.
So it seems the fears that some people are mongering are quite unfounded, at least according to experts.
As of last week, Judge Cooks granted Younger an extra school day of custody a week. Hirsch said that Younger dressed Luna as a boy and sent her off to class on Tuesday. When she arrived, “the teacher had extra clothes and said that if you want to change, you may change,” Hirsch said.
And when mom and dad weren’t around and couldn’t influence Luna one way or the other, what did she choose to do?
Hirsch said Luna chose to wear the dress.
My money is on James Younger being an unfit parent who would prefer to harm his child rather than affirm her identity.
I'd also say you'd have been better off researching a little deeper to find a less clear-cut case.
_________________
Watching liberals try to solve societal problems without a systemic critique/class consciousness is like watching someone in the dark try to flip on the light switch, but they keep turning on the garbage disposal instead.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う
funeralxempire
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Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,534
Location: Right over your left shoulder
It's not just their leanings, it's also that they're more of a tabloid than some other newspapers, they're very sensationalist and don't appear to cover stories in much depth.
_________________
Watching liberals try to solve societal problems without a systemic critique/class consciousness is like watching someone in the dark try to flip on the light switch, but they keep turning on the garbage disposal instead.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う
I'd also say you'd have been better off researching a little deeper to find a less clear-cut case.
I didn't have to research at all. I am familiar with the case for quite some time. You are dismissing my source and you are choosing to refer to another source that better fits your preconceptions. And you take them for granted point after point without considering any further scrutiny. I doubt that Vox has the perfectly correct answer for everything. Instead it is clear that they are rooting for the mothers case while at the same time they are trying to discredit the father as a person. Of course they have an opinion about what is correct science and what is not.
Personally I sympathise with Mr. Young. I understand his frustration with the kid's condition. The fact that he is estranged to his former wife doesn't help also. But I think that he should have a saying about the upbringing of his child. The argument boils down to what is the best action to take in such a case. If the kid has indeed gender dysphoria then I don't really think that weather he will dress as a boy or as a girl will change anything really. The science relative to gender dysphoria is under pressure by woke (CRT/Intersectionality) politics and activists that have nothing to do even remotely with the scientific method. Gender dysphoria is similar to body dysphoria except that people with the later have it easier. They can actually amputate a leg and the dysphoria is gone. What people with gender dysphoria want is to be of the opposite sex, which is medically impossible. What affirmative therapy will do for people with body dysphoria when it's unable to give them what they want?
So, you asked what we think of the case.
I read only your original article. It appears to be from three+ years ago, so 1) I hope that this was resolved in the kid’s best interest.
2) you article states that the mother filed a (motion? Brief? I don’t remember the legal document) saying that she wanted to have the child assessed and possible placed on puberty blockers. Puberty blockers are not given until after the first signs of puberty, so it may still be too early for that kid. Assessment seems like a good idea in general. A CASA seems like a fantastic idea..
3) taking children away from their mother over her support for the stated identity of one of the children (even if that child is simply saying what they think they should - actually, especially if that child is just saying what they think they should) is a level of psychological damage well beyond anything a mistaken social transition and delayed puberty could possibly inflict.
Yeah, I think get that kid a competent psychologist and a caring CASA. Get them for the brother too.
Also, the state of modern surgery is pretty amazing. We can absolutely change the gender of the human body. We can’t endow it with fertility (a trans woman is going to be the biological equivalent of a cis woman with breast implants and a radical hysterectomy, but at a non cellular level, they will be equivalent. We can offer men similar options.
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