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firemonkey
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04 Jan 2023, 1:03 am

Do autistic people differ from non autistic people when it comes to the issue of 'right and wrong'? What is acceptable behaviour to a non autistic person may not be so to an autistic person?



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04 Jan 2023, 2:14 am

firemonkey wrote:
Do autistic people differ from non autistic people when it comes to the issue of 'right and wrong'? What is acceptable behaviour to a non autistic person may not be so to an autistic person?


I tend to think that ethics of normal people tend to be more fluid and malleable, whereas autistic people are rigid and literal in what is said. There is also naivity so autistic people may fixate on things that are in jest as serious things.

I also think autistic people like normal people don't necessarily analyze ethics, but if they do put in the effort in will be very serious effort, not superficial.



firemonkey
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04 Jan 2023, 2:49 am

I'm thinking of a situation where a comment genuinely hurts and upsets you, but those who are NT can't grasp why you are genuinely hurt and upset.



naturalplastic
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04 Jan 2023, 5:23 am

firemonkey wrote:
I'm thinking of a situation where a comment genuinely hurts and upsets you, but those who are NT can't grasp why you are genuinely hurt and upset.


So youre talking about etiquette, and not about ethics (ie you dont mean 'right and wrong', you mean 'rude and polite').



firemonkey
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04 Jan 2023, 5:32 am

'Right and wrong' in that they see it as right behaviour and you don't.

Stick to something, like the fact you've been hurt and upset, and those incapable or unable to see why will grow more and more hostile. Give in and that legitimises the hurtful and upsetting behaviour and increases the chances of it being used to hurt and upset you again. I guess in that situation you have no sensible option other than to withdraw from interacting with such people. As it's a lose lose situation.



naturalplastic
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04 Jan 2023, 5:56 am

firemonkey wrote:
'Right and wrong' in that they see it as right behaviour and you don't.

Stick to something, like the fact you've been hurt and upset, and those incapable or unable to see why will grow more and more hostile. Give in and that legitimises the hurtful and upsetting behaviour and increases the chances of it being used to hurt and upset you again. I guess in that situation you have no sensible option other than to withdraw from interacting with such people. As it's a lose lose situation.



Dude ...your choice of wording was misleading.

To answer your question...the issue is complicated because the whole world is divided over the issue of 'wokeness' right now. So obviously folks differ AS INDIVIDUALS over what is 'offensive', and what is not 'offensive'.

How much a particular person differs from others may have to do with autism, or maybe not.

There is one issue that I seem to differ with NTs about. NTs are all a bunch of liars. And they project their own mendacity onto others. So I sometimes get wrongly accused of lying, and wrongly accused of having motives I dont have for lies I didnt tell. That can rile you.



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04 Jan 2023, 6:56 am

firemonkey wrote:
Do autistic people differ from non autistic people when it comes to the issue of 'right and wrong'? What is acceptable behaviour to a non autistic person may not be so to an autistic person?


Hi. This 'right and wrong' issue is discussed in another thread here of late about how our society is changing. It depends on what one uses as a barometer for right and wrong, right? :)

For myself, I think my neurodiversity makes me more able to be honest with others even if that honesty brings some potential awkwardness into a discussion or situation. And that is a valuable commodity in today's world where culture/satan tricks folks into believing truth is malleable to whatever a person is feeling at a particular time. Truth used to be something fixed and graspable, even if unpalatable to those who opposed it. The gospel offends people. Especially just before a conversion. The gospel being the ultimate Truth.

So, is it that someone said something that tickled your unconscious mind and is challenging your beliefs about something that you always held as truth but which you are questioning might not be truth? Or, is it something else? Do you believe in an absolute truth, i.e. right and wrong? Or do you believe right and wrong is fluid? Just how do you define right and wrong? <that is meant to be rhetorical, no need to answer out loud. :wink:


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04 Jan 2023, 7:17 am

A lot of NTs consider some ritualistic behaviours to be the right and correct thing to do and that anybody who doesn't participate is in the wrong. I think those on the spectrum are more likely to question these rituals and not join in.

Take the weekly ritual applauding of the National Health Service in my country 2 years ago, people standing on their doorsteps clapping and banging pots and pans at thin air, or at each other, with no members of NHS staff in sight. That was a pointless virtue signalling exercise that I took no part in and yet, since that time, my neighbour - rather than saying hello if I happen to be outside when he is - now sneers in my direction and mutters something under his breath. I don't know for certain his sudden change in attitude towards me is because I was the only person on the street not to emerge into the dark at 8pm every Thursday night (or whenever it was) to show the rest of the street what a good caring and grateful citizen I am, by clapping, but if not then it's quite the coincidence.
It doesn't bother me, I don't need him to validate my existence and I quite enjoy now playing the better person by giving him a cheery "hello" and making him feel uncomfortable rather than the other way around and it's great now knowing that he isn't going to try and engage me in small talk.

I know there's been cases of minute's silences at events to show respect for somebody that has died who has no connection whatsoever with anybody in the stadium or the sport they are about to watch. Some child has then called out in the middle of it and the parent then has to explain that the child is ASD, not badly behaved or deliberately being disrespectful.



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04 Jan 2023, 7:33 am

naturalplastic wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
'Right and wrong' in that they see it as right behaviour and you don't.

Stick to something, like the fact you've been hurt and upset, and those incapable or unable to see why will grow more and more hostile. Give in and that legitimises the hurtful and upsetting behaviour and increases the chances of it being used to hurt and upset you again. I guess in that situation you have no sensible option other than to withdraw from interacting with such people. As it's a lose lose situation.



Dude ...your choice of wording was misleading.



I don't think so, but if that's what you think then fair enough.



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04 Jan 2023, 7:45 am

Quote:
There is one issue that I seem to differ with NTs about. NTs are all a bunch of liars. And they project their own mendacity onto others


But if I do that I worry that I'm a narcissist. I have lied before at work to get myself out of doing more work, and because I easily got away with it I worried in case it made me a narcissist. But then I think, isn't lying and making more lies to cover up any 'wrong' behaviours what most NTs typically do anyway?
Or is it just one of those double standards where Aspies always have to be nice and thoughtful all the time and if there's one incident where we've let our hair down we're narcissists or sociopaths all of a sudden?


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naturalplastic
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04 Jan 2023, 8:18 am

firemonkey wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
'Right and wrong' in that they see it as right behaviour and you don't.

Stick to something, like the fact you've been hurt and upset, and those incapable or unable to see why will grow more and more hostile. Give in and that legitimises the hurtful and upsetting behaviour and increases the chances of it being used to hurt and upset you again. I guess in that situation you have no sensible option other than to withdraw from interacting with such people. As it's a lose lose situation.



Dude ...your choice of wording was misleading.



I don't think so, but if that's what you think then fair enough.


You meant "correct and incorrect behavior". NOT "right and wrong".

Hinckley was spared hard time in prison for murder because he was mentally impaired and was deemed to be "not guilty by reason of insanity"...'insane' in the legal sense of ....guess what...'not knowing right from wrong'.

Right from wrong ...in the legal and moral sense.

So your op title implies that autistics differ from other folks in our beliefs about ...theft or murder... or like that.



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04 Jan 2023, 9:21 am

We tend to have a better sense of it and a stronger sense of justice.


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04 Jan 2023, 3:17 pm

I used to participate in wrong behaviors. It felt like connecting. Mimicry of sorts.
Eventually wrong is defined by reactions of individuals. Culture defines the broader terms of what constitutes wrong.
Its like when shouting or talking loud is OK to many people and others think you are being aggressive.

Bringing up something specific would be better.

Personally I think culture is contagious. It also depends on age and context, which means a lot of complexity over simple things.

I think I have fairly good grasp of complex social situations, but at the end of the day one has to ask who is happy.
If none are happy then it is bad behavior.

I find its common to misattribute meaning of behavior to intent.

Lets not act like neurotypical people are perfect in interactions. They tend to make as many mistakes as autistic people.

I find literal and ernest displays of autistic people better.

The problem is that on individual level it depends what triggers autistic person.
Idiosynchratic personal behaviors autistic people have put them in easy position to be devalued or offended in a way.
Even if culturally its appropriate.



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04 Jan 2023, 7:00 pm

skibum wrote:
We tend to have a better sense of it and a stronger sense of justice.


Personally I Identify with justice strongly. I think we are wired to think in an abstract platonic way, while NT's are wired to think in terms of practical self preservation. An example of that are our special interests. These are disinterested persuits of knowledge or activities that explore specific areas and possibilities of the world. NT's also have special interests but which they share commonly, like the persuit of romantic partners, the acquisition of wealth, of gadgets, of socia status and so on. Their special interests are of a self preserving nature. Our special interests are not the only ones that are detached from the impulse for self preservation, our morality and sense of justice do too. While NT's morality is still attached to self preservation and is subservient to it. Thats why they are more inclined to bypass morality or justice when it's blocking the way to the persuit of their self preserving interests.

Edit:
P.S. Following this chain of thought, I'm thinking of the possibility that with autism, evolution has found a shortcut to the complexity of human interaction between individuals (NT's) who have to cooperate while at the same time persue their self interest blindly. What if the individuals (ASD's) can cooperate while adhering to more universal notions of cosmic harmony, like justice. The millennia will decide. Just a thought.



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04 Jan 2023, 7:55 pm

I doubt it's an autistic v/s nt thing. I think it's a human thing.When it comes to people saying hurtful things and others not recognizing those things as hurtful...autistic people can and will do these things to.



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06 Jan 2023, 8:17 am

FleaOfTheChill wrote:
I doubt it's an autistic v/s nt thing. I think it's a human thing.When it comes to people saying hurtful things and others not recognizing those things as hurtful...autistic people can and will do these things to.

This.

Everyone (NTs and ASDs) has their own unique "set of buttons" that they dont want to be pushed because of their own individual life experiences.

Also autistics are notorious for being blunt and insensitive themselves.