"if guns are outlawed only violent criminals will have guns.

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Sonic200
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07 Jan 2023, 2:20 pm

If this is really the case, why is it that areas in the world with the strictest gun control don't see the highest rates of gun crime?



Radish
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07 Jan 2023, 2:24 pm

Very few people in the UK die from gun crime where guns are relatively difficult to get hold of. Most killings are done with knives. One difference though... someone with a gun can kill lots of people in one go, like the US mass school shootings, but someone with a knife usually gets overpowered after one or two stabbings.


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07 Jan 2023, 5:26 pm

As long as Shiva doesn’t decide to go on a stabby rampage.
No overpowering that.


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ezbzbfcg2
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07 Jan 2023, 5:35 pm

Radish wrote:
Very few people in the UK die from gun crime where guns are relatively difficult to get hold of.


The UK is a tiny rock. I'm not saying this to be condescending, I'm saying this to indicate that the UK is a small, isolated island. Any GUNS would have to be smuggled in across the water. Not impossible, but more difficult.

In the USA, most gun laws are actually enforced at the state level. What this means is that a state can be as anti-gun as it wants, and punish its residents for owning firearms. But, since the USA is continental in size, firearms from more gun-friendly states can easily be brought across state lines.

Law abiding citizens can't legally attain such weaponry, but criminals who don't care about the letter of the law can access them easily and they don't care about their illegality.



MissMary227
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07 Jan 2023, 5:39 pm

I used to be of the mindset that one didn't really *need* a firearm for protection because you could just call the cops. But I learned my lesson when years ago my then-neighbor, an old veteran, went off his rocker one day and threatened, "I am gonna kill you b***h!" I ran inside and called the cops but they refused to send anyone because in our sleepy little town there were 'none available' and they basically ignored me thinking I was overreacting. I had my little boy at home and our locks did not work well (it was a rental) and I had no weapons. I ended up gathering up my things and snuck us out to my car, hoping he wouldn't ambush us on the way.

I vacated my place because I had no idea what fire power he had over there or what he was capable of. I went to my friends' house and slept for a couple nights. Finally, I heard that just after that he went to the local store and caused a commotion and the cops descended on the store and hauled him into the psych treatment facility where he stayed for 3 days. I guess they were available then. :x I went straight to the sporting goods store and bought a .38 revolver, learned to use it, and I vow I will never again call the cops until after I deal with the situation myself (if it's inside my home).

The psychiatrist called me herself to say they had to let him go. She didn't tell me that he was talking about me in there are anything, but I'm not sure she could? But she gave me a head's up about it which is interesting. I was back home by that time and I slept on my sofa with my gun beside me until he was evicted. They found a firearm he left behind for some reason when he left. He went back to Washington state evidently.

They also found he had tried to drill a hole into the wall between our bedrooms but hit the firewall. Pretty creepy.

Anyone who advocates for no guns needs to be exposed to that kind of situation. WITH their young child in tow!! Then tell me to give up my constitutional right to bear arms. NO WAY!!


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ezbzbfcg2
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07 Jan 2023, 5:59 pm

Radish wrote:
Very few people in the UK die from gun crime where guns are relatively difficult to get hold of.


The UK is a tiny rock. I'm not saying this to be condescending, I'm saying this to indicate that the UK is a small, isolated island. Any GUNS would have to be smuggled in across the water. Not impossible, but more difficult.

In the USA, most gun laws are actually enforced at the state level. What this means is that a state can be as anti-gun as it wants, and punish its residents for owning firearms. But, since the USA is continental in size, firearms from more gun-friendly states can easily be brought across state lines.

Law abiding citizens can't legally attain such weaponry, but criminals who don't care about the letter of the law can access them easily and they don't care about their illegality.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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07 Jan 2023, 6:58 pm

"If criminals are outlawed who will have criminals?"


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07 Jan 2023, 7:19 pm

Americans can blame the 'violent criminals' all they want to but the fact is we are one of those countries that imprisons more criminals than any other country on earth. We're not even ranked in the top 10 for safest countries for people to live in so obviously we're doing SOMETHING very wrong and Americans are just too cynical and frankly too stupid to try and fix anything while telling themselves that they are the greatest, safest, and most "free" country in the world. :roll:

Btw shouldnt this be in the PPR board?



nick007
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07 Jan 2023, 7:51 pm

I fail to comprehend the logic of how increasing guns will reduce gun violence :huh: That's like saying increasing access to food will cause more people to starve


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07 Jan 2023, 7:54 pm

nick007 wrote:
I fail to comprehend the logic of how increasing guns will reduce gun violence :huh: That's like saying increasing access to food will cause more people to starve


Dat Republican Logic. :jester:



Radish
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08 Jan 2023, 8:51 am

MissMary227 wrote:
I went straight to the sporting goods store and bought a .38 revolver, learned to use it


I can appreciate your action to defend yourself. The problem is the USA has literally become its own victim of an arms race. Bad guys got guns so good guys go out and buy guns. Arms manufacturers are happy and sell automatic rifles and machine guns and god knows what else that folks in America can legally buy. You (Americans) are in the position now that anyone having a bad time or develops a dangerous psychiatric condition can go and buy military grade weapons and wipe out a class full of school kids. Even 6 year old kids are getting in on the action now. Your right to bear arms has come back to bite you all in the ass big time.


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MissMary227
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08 Jan 2023, 9:08 am

Radish wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
I went straight to the sporting goods store and bought a .38 revolver, learned to use it


I can appreciate your action to defend yourself. The problem is the USA has literally become its own victim of an arms race. Bad guys got guns so good guys go out and buy guns. Arms manufacturers are happy and sell automatic rifles and machine guns and god knows what else that folks in America can legally buy. You (Americans) are in the position now that anyone having a bad time or develops a dangerous psychiatric condition can go and buy military grade weapons and wipe out a class full of school kids. Even 6 year old kids are getting in on the action now. Your right to bear arms has come back to bite you all in the ass big time.



I hear that you are saying that gun purchases are escalating and anyone who wants can own a gun. It also sounds like you are saying that gun violence has increased. If that is not a correct interpretation please feel free to correct me.

I wonder about the proportion of population to violence in general. Gun violence indeed might be increasing in the category of mass shootings (a new phenomenon--at least outside the military) but human population has increased as well. This discussion begs the question of the rate of violence compared to yesteryear.

To sum up, I realize the media wants to magnify gun violence and make it seem like the ability to purchase guns freely is leading to increased violence. But is it really if you consider increased population as well? And if it's actually increased, what % increase are we talking about? We have to know the scope of the problem clearly before we can ever begin discussing a solution.

To Everyone:
[^That mindset of jumping to a drastic freedom-constricting solution based on fear before all the facts are in or discussed is what led us to the terrible and unlawful lock-downs and violence perpetrated upon everyone worldwide in the name of saving lives. When in the end the mortality rate from Covid is well under 2% of the population. If we consider morbidity from mental health issues, lost careers/businesses/income, and mortality from suicides, I guarantee you it is way more than 2% of the population affected. Let's learn from history to look before we leap and be discerning when it comes to information we get, especially if most of it comes from mainstream media like CNN.]


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Radish
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08 Jan 2023, 9:15 am

^ What I'm saying is that with your American right to bear arms, means that guns have flooded your society. You might want to call it "freedom" but being able to freely buy military grade weapons and shoot up schools isn't my definition of freedom. There is far less gun crime in the UK and Western Europe as there is no 'right to bear arms' here. How often do you hear of schools being shot up in Europe? We hear of US school shootings all the time. It has become your national pastime.


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MissMary227
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08 Jan 2023, 9:17 am

Also, I still haven't seen anyone tell me how I am supposed to protect myself and my child in my own home at the moment someone is breaking in (or has broken in) if I don't own a gun.

Even the bible says you can kill if someone breaks into your home. I think we all believe that your home is your sacred place and that you should be able to adequately defend yourself. Why should I potentially die because a psychopath might decide to take vengeance on a crowd of people??? What? We are putting psychopaths' interests and issues above citizens' interests now?


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MissMary227
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08 Jan 2023, 9:18 am

Radish wrote:
^ What I'm saying is that with your American right to bear arms, means that guns have flooded your society. You might want to call it "freedom" but being able to freely buy military grade weapons and shoot up schools isn't my definition of freedom. There is far less gun crime in the UK and Western Europe as there is no 'right to bear arms' here. How often do you hear of schools being shot up in Europe? We hear of US school shootings all the time. It has become your national pastime.


No. But freedom IS being able to defend yourself and your family.


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Radish
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08 Jan 2023, 9:24 am

MissMary227 wrote:
Radish wrote:
^ What I'm saying is that with your American right to bear arms, means that guns have flooded your society. You might want to call it "freedom" but being able to freely buy military grade weapons and shoot up schools isn't my definition of freedom. There is far less gun crime in the UK and Western Europe as there is no 'right to bear arms' here. How often do you hear of schools being shot up in Europe? We hear of US school shootings all the time. It has become your national pastime.


No. But freedom IS being able to defend yourself and your family.


Of course it is. The point I'm making is that your right to bear arms means your entire country is flooded with guns. It typically means if someone is going to break into your home they will be carrying a gun, so you need to have a gun too. Here in UK / Europe there are few guns which means anyone breaking into your home isn't likely to be armed with a gun in the first place. The American solution of guns for everyone will never cure the problems your country has with gun violence. I see no solution. As a country you have left it too late to get a grip on. So the school shootings will go on and on and on. One small thing you could do is stop selling military grade or automatic weapons to the public, but the NRA would block any such attempts in the name of freedom.


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