How Can Decent People Behave Callously?

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I wanted to respond to this part of the post:

So, broadly speaking, the majority of acts we might describe as evil or hurtful aren't motivated by malice and aren't committed by 'bad guys' or 'psychopaths/sociopaths/narcissists/whatever label allows us to other these people'.

Necessity might be a motivator, the addict with poor executive function mugging people isn't doing it because they're evil, they're doing it because they lack the ability to break out of living with that little understanding of future consequences.

Callous indifference is a big one and many things that motivate it aren't due to hate or malice. It doesn't require one to be 'evil' to treat another poorly, in fact, labelling someone as evil is a good way to get others to treat that person with callous indifference.

People(s) who are othered, and especially people(s) who are marginalized (which is to say broadly othered, as well as struggling with the institutional problems that result) are often subjected to this sort of treatment. With enough power, it might not matter (it doesn't matter how many people dislike Elon Musk for being a billionaire or autistic or even for legit reasons, he'll be okay) but for most of us, it's a significant additional burden, the more forms of it we face the more significant burden it is.

When this sort of treatment is normalized, people who aren't hateful (or don't perceive it) will join in because it's normal. It's not transgressive (bad) behaviour, it's normal, socially approved behaviour. When one has struggled to understand social boundaries and struggled to find acceptance and handle rejection, it makes it easy to join in on that sort of behaviour because it's normal and people who fit in do it. That don't make it right, but it does make it easy to not realize it.

Further, there's a tendency for people to underestimate their own participation in bullying behaviours. It's something our own ego does to protect itself. It's always just joking around and after that, usually they're just too sensitive. It's hard to accept that it was one's own fault, we (humans) don't like to do that. I know this from experience unfortunately.

The most acute examples of this might be mob violence, but you could also point to all the decent folks sitting down to watch a lynching, or all the not evil NSDAP or Khmer Rouge (or whatever genocidal or democidal regime comes to mind) regime followers who were perfectly decent in their normal day to day affairs. Loved their partners, loved their kids, helped people in their community. Butchered the other.

Most people believe that they're good people. Good people don't do evil things, and by thinking about it that way we're able to downplay harm we inflict, at least to ourselves. Worse, sometimes we're convinced it isn't harmful or even that it's good.

The fact of the matter is that most people are either both or neither when it comes to good and evil. This is all the more true because we're less likely (and less effective) at empathizing with the other. We're not thinking of their feelings when we hurt them, it's callous indifference.

Most of the time when we hurt one another, it's not because we're evil, it's because we don't realize it, or don't care enough or aren't brave enough to choose the good course of action. Sometimes it's to fit in, or because it's normal; often it's a combination of all of those factors. You don't need to be a bad person to inflict harm, you just need to not concern yourself with whether or not harm will be inflicted.

Guilt comes from recognizing it in hindsight.
Shame comes from getting caught or being called out.
And most of us are skilled at dodging both, especially if the one harmed is the other.

By putting principals above human value. I know a few here.

I'm sure they're not all here either, that's kinda my whole point. It's a much broader question than one of ideology or anything else political.

I'm also not even suggesting that there's never a time for callousness. If someone is acting in a way that's harming someone or many others around them, they need to be told even if it will hurt their feelings.

Conflict can often necessitate callousness, but how do so many people manage it when they're not in conflict or don't perceive themselves as being in a conflict?

It's just that WhereamI keeps subtly bringing me up without using my name, in these "how are you feeling?" or "things you don't get", etc, threads. So it's making it hard for me to move on when I can feel the hostility is still there.

It's not words that get to me, it's emotions and intent that come with them. I'm extremely sensitive to moods, emotions and intentions, more than words. Obviously some words have a trigger on me, such as the word "empathy" simply because it has a different meaning depending on whether you're on the autism spectrum or not. NTs can murder and still get called having empathy. An Aspie has a different political view and we're called we lack empathy.
But empathy doesn't go hand in hand with politics. With me, empathy is a personal, individual thing. If a friend has a problem I see their side of the story, tell them what they want to hear, and be there for them. I've stood up against racism at work, not because I'm "trying to look like a good person because really I'm a c**t", but because a black friend of mine is being discriminated against because of his skin colour, and I naturally feel angry about it. To me this isn't over the top political correctness, it's standing up against pure racism.

If someone here with the same views about political correctness as me backed me up (there are a lot here) then you'll know what I'm talking about.

I admit that I'm not the brightest person on WP so sometimes I just ignorantly post something I thought was true, just because it's what I've heard so many times offline, without intending to be "hateful". I don't get a kick out of it. I beat myself up about it. And you have to see that these days it is very easy to "say the wrong thing" when discussing political matters, even for NTs. This is where the political correctness lies (as in "lay", not "fib").

It can also depend on culture. Where I come from people share the same political views, but when I go on to WP I have to remember that there are people from all over the world here that may not experience the same culture and political background as I do. But the damage is done now, I've apparently offended waaay too many people waaay too many times here by bullying, judging, trolling, personally attacking, being racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, paedophilic, psychopathic, evil, wicked, and everything else, in 99% of my posts, which is the complete opposite to my nature, so I'm not sure whether I'm coming or going any more.

Oh for f***s sake, get a grip woman.

I have never subtlety brought you up in 'how are you feeling' or any other threads. I find it so f*****g bizarre that you said that. Those posts are about me - not you.

I have almost always addressed you directly in 'things you don't get' - you know this, as does the mod who deleted our posts. So quit lying. There's only one post where I said 'people who lie' which was about you. The rest of your post I will not even waste my energy reading. I always address your problematic posts in all threads directly.

Do you ever wonder why people leave WP because of you? Have a think about that.

Last edited by Where_am_I on 20 Jan 2023, 7:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

From a biological perspective, animals may sacrifice themselves selflessly, but this will be for the benefit of a selfish gene. Animal dies fighting for the herd, gene for fighting for the herd lives on to the extent it is found in the herd. If you're not compatible genetically, the sacrifice was in vain. Thus, selfishly, altruism is limited to in-groups and scorn is found for out-groups. Ironically, the autist, oblivious to the social landscape, tends to be more objective and thus more empathetic than the average person.

Only HeroOfHyrule, simply because she wrote that the transphobes are back as soon as I was back from a two-month break, which I actually requested as a self-punishment, and I did it for you. I knew I had upset people and I wasn't proud of it. I hate myself for it.

Are you sure about that?
How do you know her intention or meaning?
I have a feeling there's more going on in WAI's life than you.

Also, you're naming her here ^ , in an accusatory way.
That's kind of ironic in my opinion.

That member is not a "she", as I'm sure you're aware.

Also, please don't discuss people who aren't here to defend themselves.

It was another member who wrote the transphobes are back - not HoH. Please quit with the lying.

And thank you, Issy.

Uhh, FFS all I do is dig myself holes.


Right, it wasn't a lie, I just thought it was HeroOfHyrule who wrote it. I'm sure it was? Or was it you?


OK, just tell me, what would you like me to to say? What should I say to put this right? What do you want me to say, without me making a fool of myself any further?

Wow. So now you're accusing me.

I'll leave you to it.

No, quite the opposite actually. I'm not accusing you of anything. I can't even own up to my own s**t without being accused of accusing someone else.

Please tell me what I should say.

Oh, edit, you mean about the transphobes are back post. I wasn't literally accusing you but you were strictly on HeroOfHyrule's side. I honestly don't remember who it was who wrote that.

There's a simple algorithm that dictates the more people you are responsible for, the more decisions you have to make that will come across as cruel and callous to somebody.

Or to put it simply decent people can't please all of the people all of the time.

Decent people often talk about the "big picture" or the "future". Sometimes people have to make sacrifices.

But WhereAmI, just tell me what I should say right now because this is going round and round in circles and I'm tired of being seen as a dick by you.

So forget about kafkatraps and all that, and just say "Joe90, you should say X and Y, then you'll be forgiven", and I'll say it and then we can move on.

Just to clear, I don't want to discuss the personal level drama. I'm really interested in the broader idea of why regular, decent people do things that hurt others and how people deal with conflict between the two.

I've never met anyone who'd admit to being a genuinely bad person, but I don't think I've ever known a person who hasn't chosen to hurt others, whether through greed, malice, ignorance or perceived necessity. But yet, we're also way more prone to pro-social, benevolent behaviours than any other apes, so clearly we're not all bad. Not a single human that ever lived was all bad, even the ones who's misdeeds are so overwhelming as to make whatever good they've done irrelevant. Irrelevant isn't quite the same as non-existent.

A desire to tend might be one our most defining traits as a species.