Trans Issue Question

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My sister is trans. I know from her that being on HRT has taken away a lot of the natural AMAB strength she used to have. Her hormone levels after nearly 2 years of HRT are the same as that of a cis woman.

Are there still biological advantages? Probably. Idk. But literally every good athlete is biologically advantaged, so where do we draw the line?

Soccer should have "weak" segregation, where women's sport is protected but men's isn't. Some elite women could probably compete with men (not necessarily the technically best ones like Sam Kerr, but the unusually fit ones), but if we abolished women's football altogether then there would be fewer opportunities for women.

Fair enough.

I was just thinking at the national or Olympic levels, so that youngsters could still play segregated to build interest in the sport, but as they get older and better they could integrate. idk, just a thought. Having been a hockey and soccer mum (son and daughter played soccer) I can see it both ways. Soccer is HUGE here for kids of both genders, and arguably more popular than hockey since it isn't as expensive. Registration has never been a problem.

and what about the dream of a trans girl? That's a dream you're okay with breaking?

points made before illustrate it better than I can: why can men excel but women can't?

Every now and then someone will ask me what I think of transwomen competing in sports. My standard response to this is, "What I think is that it's funny how transwomen are what it took to get people interested in women's sports." No one talked about women's sports until this became a hot topic thing. The majority of people never cared before, but they suddenly do now? None of the people who asked me ever watched women's sports before, went to an actual game, or could even name a famous woman athlete beyond the tennis playing sisters. Don't get me wrong here, I can't either, but I'm not a sports person. I couldn't name a famous male athlete right now...I could name some from the 80's and 90's that used to show up in movies or commercials, but current male athletes? Nope.

For the record, I am fine with it if transwomen compete in women's sports. They are women and if they are playing in a sport where gender divides exist, then I very much think they should be in women's sports.

It's a bigger issue after puberty.

Pre-puberty, integration is fine - good even! And realistically some women could absolutely choose to play with men and, for one reason or another, not look out of place.

At elite level, it is likely no woman would ever have won an international competition. Few would reach the top of the professional game. I am certain there would be fewer professionals, full stop.

The men's game can and should be more open to women who have the right attributes to succeed. But the women's game serves a valuable purpose, both at elite level and park kickabouts.

Trans women are about 1% of the female population, they're not going to "destroy women's sport". But at least in the case of soccer, and other sports with a similar reliance on power and top speed, having a protected women's competition is beneficial.

Women CAN and DO excel.

But deconstructing gender as a social construct ignores the fact that biological males and females are built differently. And those differences mean that there is inherent inequality between the two. To best show how women can and do excel, women's sports should be protected.

When you allow a biological male to compete in women's sports, what you are doing is taking Patriarchy and sticking a dress on it.

HRT takes away a lot of the biological male advantages, if not most

Irrelevant. That's like trying to argue that what Rachel Dolezal did doesn't amount to blackface--and race really is a social construct.

I mean...a biological male can always go back to being masculine. Biological females will almost always be at a relative disadvantage. Biological males don't have the lived experience of women. And women have long been denied the right to write their own story. This is nothing more than patriarchy wearing a skirt.

It's not that I believe trans people shouldn't have any rights. I don't really see it as a positive thing, but...I believe individuals should have the right to do whatever they want within reason. There is nothing reasonable about exploiting women and women's sports to get an easy win.

I'm pretty sure most female athletes don't wear dresses.

We stuck trousers on women in daily life. Did it hurt them?

I personally disagree that transgender women don't have a lived female experience. Granted, it's a different experience, but then again - there's no one size fits all way to experience womanhood. If there was, I don't think I would be included and that's coming from a cisgender woman.

One of my friends, whom I haven't seen in a while, is a transgender woman. We have swapped many stories over the years and I relate to her a lot. She told me about the sexism she had faced at her workplace. How men had asked, with impatience, to talk to a man because 'women don't know about fixing computers'. We rolled our eyes and laughed together.

Frankly, even though I knew her before she came out, before she transitioned - I can't ever imagine calling her a guy these days or thinking of her as such. I saw her face when she winced at being called a guy by me before she was out of the closet about it - heck I practically felt that pain shoot through me.

Unfortunately I have witnessed people not be so kind to her. Which hurt me. I care deeply about my friends.

Ultimately I don't think I can convince you though. Which is a shame. I think my friendship with her actually made me appreciate being a woman even more. Feel comfortable within my own identity.

Well...I think what you're feeling derives from defining yourself according to your own values, not some artificial construct about what other people think you are because you are a woman, or how people define womanhood. When you say "my own identity," that says to me you are speaking as an individual, not as a part of a collective victim class.

I wouldn't "identify" as a feminist exactly, but I do value the empowerment of women--not because being a woman makes you special, but because women have been victims throughout time and I like to see people rise above status. I get pleasure out of seeing underdogs win on their virtues, not because they have to be propped up.

My personal view is that I have a preference for people the way they are born. Natural eyes, natural hair, natural everything. It's not that I think a woman is a horrible person for having fake b**bs, it's just I find naturalness more attractive. I don't think trans people are necessarily horrible people, it's just I find them unattractive. There's nothing wrong with finding a trans woman unattractive, same as I don't find men attractive. But more than that, I can't help but wish that people would just love themselves as they are, enhance what's there IF ANYTHING, and not try to become something they aren't. And "feeling differently on the inside" is not the same. It's wishful thinking, and wishful thinking IS something I believe to be morally wrong.

I didn't say beings trans is morally wrong. I said wishful thinking is morally wrong. A woman is a woman. A man is a man. A trans-woman is a trans-woman. But a trans-woman is NOT a woman. It's the logical law of identity: A=A. A thing is that thing. One person is that person. B cannot become A any more than A can become B. And because of that, trans-women will always be a sub-set of men, biologically speaking. You can't wish your way into being something you aren't.

Identity as a social construct, like social constructs in general, doesn't objectively exist. That's the only way men can become women. In this worldview, words and definitions are social constructs and originate within power structures. The words "man," "woman," and "trans-" are essentially meaningless gibberish. So by redefining our words, we recreate our world. A != A because it's impossible to define or identify objectively what exactly A even IS. Therefore, if I feel like being a woman today, then I'm a woman today. And nobody has the right to tell me I can't.

The end result is always the same. SOMEONE will exploit the system to get something they can't have otherwise. And while someone is exploiting something, someone else is being exploited. Maybe your trans friend isn't exploiting someone, but someone WILL use a biological advantage. Maybe they have already. And the people who lose in this zero sum game will be those who always have ended up losing.

The plain fact is a trans woman can always go back to being a man whenever he likes. If being trans or being a woman becomes too much, there's an escape hatch. Biological females don't get that option. Trans women have the advantage that because they are trans and more of a minority than women, they require more protection than women do. And by requiring more protection, they also require more special treatment. And by getting special treatment, they enjoy an elevated status above women.

Kinda like men always have. Except since trans women are seen as oppressed victims, no one is allowed to SAY that trans women are oppressive to biological women.

Trans women will only ever have the lived experience of trans women, not the lived experience of biological women. It's only a problem if you buy into class identity.

And if that's the case, winning at women's sports as a trans-woman does NOT make you a hero. It makes you an oppressor.

If you're looking for a transsexual hero, why not learn about Buck Angel? That's a real story, in my opinion, because this is someone who has risen above identity to do the seemingly impossible. It's not about "identity this" or "identity that" but rather about defining YOURSELF. Buck Angel has also been outspoken regarding differences between "women" and "trans women," along with championing LGBTQ issues with uncommon rationality.

I think the reason why seeing her wince hit me in the way it did was because I recognised that expression. Now, I am not always the best with understanding expressions, but when I looked at her face I saw myself. My younger self. I remembered how it felt when I was picked on as a kid. People used to refer to me as he or him as a joke and say that I didn't count as girl and never will.

Whilst it's not exactly the same, in that moment I understood. I also recognised the pained politeness and hesitant expression which followed. Even though it only lasted a short time. It reminded me of how I felt sometimes before I came out to someone, the initial worry that it may be ill received but trying not to let that show.

So when she came out after my remark I wasn't shocked. I had anticipated it.

Trans women in sports is a complicated issue. Certainly it doesn't apply to my friend. Neither of us could ever be described as particularly athletic.

Sometimes it's not as simple as male puberty vs female puberty. One time as a teenager, a guy tried to pick a fight with me. However, he didn't get very far since once he started throwing punches I simply picked him up. I held him in the air as his legs kicked. Then I put him down and gave him a glare which I hoped told him to back off. He looked shocked and simply let me walk away.

However, I know I don't have much of a chance against most guys. Still, hormone treatment makes quite the difference. Many people who take Estrogen report a drop in sex drive and in physical strength. So making such a person compete with their original assigned gender doesn't seem particularly fair.

I remember reading a news story where a trans guy had to remain on a girls' sports team despite the fact that he kept on winning all the time and it was annoying the girls who wanted him off the team. That's not particularly fair either.

Personally I think it should be decided on a case by case basis whether it is fair to let a particular individual on the team. I gain the impression that it's an issue which is greatly overexaggerated. We're not seeing masses upon masses of trans people taking up sports at an Olympic level. The vast majority are cisgender.

Generally speaking, transwomen who seek to compete in sports aren't 'exploiting women and women's sport to get an easy win', they're seeking to compete in the category they believe is most appropriate.

By framing some athlete's desire to compete as inherently in bad faith you don't do your position any favours.

It isn't transphobic to debate how to properly include transwomen in sports, but it is inherently transphobic to keep suggesting they seek to compete out of bad faith.