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Free Stuff is Good, Actually

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funeralxempire
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10 May 2023, 12:38 am



A breakdown of how there most certainly can be such a thing as a free lunch, at least when it comes to states investing in their people.


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Nades
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10 May 2023, 1:47 am

All possible other than the UBI really. Trial runs involving a small number of people VS everyone in a country are very different. It doesn't work out mathematically.

If everyone in a country gets 20k UBI and only roughly half pay taxes, then surely those that pay taxes to a reasonable amount would have to pay a more than 20k just to fund the UBI aspect for others and themselves?



QuantumChemist
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10 May 2023, 7:56 pm

Nades wrote:
All possible other than the UBI really. Trial runs involving a small number of people VS everyone in a country are very different. It doesn't work out mathematically.

If everyone in a country gets 20k UBI and only roughly half pay taxes, then surely those that pay taxes to a reasonable amount would have to pay a more than 20k just to fund the UBI aspect for others and themselves?


It will also push US inflation to go to a much higher level. People will go out and spend the money the government gives them on stupid things. It happened during the government money fest of COVID. People buying habits will increase demand on those things, which will cause prices to go up. Simple supply vs. demand issue that causes the inflation effect. Nationwide UBI is a great way to get the dollar devalued even more on a world stage. China is laughing at this idea, as it just puts them in a better position to make margin calls on our debts.



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11 May 2023, 2:11 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
Nades wrote:
All possible other than the UBI really. Trial runs involving a small number of people VS everyone in a country are very different. It doesn't work out mathematically.

If everyone in a country gets 20k UBI and only roughly half pay taxes, then surely those that pay taxes to a reasonable amount would have to pay a more than 20k just to fund the UBI aspect for others and themselves?


It will also push US inflation to go to a much higher level. People will go out and spend the money the government gives them on stupid things. It happened during the government money fest of COVID. People buying habits will increase demand on those things, which will cause prices to go up. Simple supply vs. demand issue that causes the inflation effect. Nationwide UBI is a great way to get the dollar devalued even more on a world stage. China is laughing at this idea, as it just puts them in a better position to make margin calls on our debts.


Yeah and that. It'll be a disaster and will probably cause hyperinflation. It's impossible for it not to really seeing they will likely have to start printing money too.

Many don't understand a nations currency needs to be linked to something of value for the currency itself to have value. It's nice thinking about UBI if you're unemployed for example, but if people catch on that unemployed people are given large sums of money for doing nothing productive then prices will have to rise to offset non-productive money of no substance or tangible source.

Who can blame China too. If I was giving loans to nations who thought it would be a good idea to start handing out free money with no productivity or assets behind it, I would be calling my loans in before they ended up bankrupt. Might as well start drawing money with a pencil on post-it notes.



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11 May 2023, 5:25 pm

Those of us who are retired are getting free money.


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funeralxempire
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11 May 2023, 10:55 pm

Honey69 wrote:
Those of us who are retired are getting free money.


So now we know who to blame for inflation. :lol:

Apparently poor people having a larger piece of the pie is the cause of inflation, not an increasing monetary supply.


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Nades
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12 May 2023, 2:56 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
Those of us who are retired are getting free money.


So now we know who to blame for inflation. :lol:

Apparently poor people having a larger piece of the pie is the cause of inflation, not an increasing monetary supply.


Saving or contributing to a pension isn't free money though. That's why the state pension here is extremely basic if no contributions have been made by an individual.

Poor people getting a bigger piece of the pie is free money and if money doesn't have a tangible source i.e worked for it or from assets being sold or used in some other way, then it'll only be a matter of time before the value of the currency goes down and inflation goes up. The piece of the pie doesn't add up too. Only about half of people in the UK pay tax so for an UBI of 20k, which is the most basic livable income, a tax payer needs to pay on average 40k of tax just for the UBI aspect alone.

This is economics 101. Might as well start printing money.



funeralxempire
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12 May 2023, 5:59 am

Nades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
Those of us who are retired are getting free money.


So now we know who to blame for inflation. :lol:

Apparently poor people having a larger piece of the pie is the cause of inflation, not an increasing monetary supply.


Saving or contributing to a pension isn't free money though. That's why the state pension here is extremely basic if no contributions have been made by an individual.

Poor people getting a bigger piece of the pie is free money and if money doesn't have a tangible source i.e worked for it or from assets being sold or used in some other way, then it'll only be a matter of time before the value of the currency goes down and inflation goes up. The piece of the pie doesn't add up too. Only about half of people in the UK pay tax so for an UBI of 20k, which is the most basic livable income, a tax payer needs to pay on average 40k of tax just for the UBI aspect alone.

This is economics 101. Might as well start printing money.


You're acting like UBI would involve increasing the monetary supply as opposed to repurposing taxes already collected. Yes, you might need to raise taxes on high earner in order to fund it, but after decades of cutting their taxes they can start to pay society back.


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12 May 2023, 6:57 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Nades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
Those of us who are retired are getting free money.


So now we know who to blame for inflation. :lol:

Apparently poor people having a larger piece of the pie is the cause of inflation, not an increasing monetary supply.


Saving or contributing to a pension isn't free money though. That's why the state pension here is extremely basic if no contributions have been made by an individual.

Poor people getting a bigger piece of the pie is free money and if money doesn't have a tangible source i.e worked for it or from assets being sold or used in some other way, then it'll only be a matter of time before the value of the currency goes down and inflation goes up. The piece of the pie doesn't add up too. Only about half of people in the UK pay tax so for an UBI of 20k, which is the most basic livable income, a tax payer needs to pay on average 40k of tax just for the UBI aspect alone.

This is economics 101. Might as well start printing money.


You're acting like UBI would involve increasing the monetary supply as opposed to repurposing taxes already collected. Yes, you might need to raise taxes on high earner in order to fund it, but after decades of cutting their taxes they can start to pay society back.


The problem with UBI is that it's never a reasonable basic amount but rather begins to approach an entire salary which is difficult to find when only half the population here at least in the UK pays any taxes.

Workers will be taxed so high and those that don't will receive so much that there won't be much difference in income between the half that works and those that don't earn enough to even pay taxes which begins to sound a lot like slavery.

This isn't a few people here and there being paid or small test samples, this is an entire 50% of the population needing a substantial amount of finding.

What do you do you consider a high earner too?

It's also unearned income which I thought you were firmly against?



funeralxempire
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12 May 2023, 7:21 am

When bottom earners are given money, they're forced to spend it. This is a form of stimulus for an economy.

I'm in favour of driving up the cost of labour, if businesses need to find savings they can always trim some executive positions.


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12 May 2023, 7:42 am

funeralxempire wrote:
When bottom earners are given money, they're forced to spend it. This is a form of stimulus for an economy.

I'm in favour of driving up the cost of labour, if businesses need to find savings they can always trim some executive positions.


But still, who's paying for it? Also it's unearned income that's not linked to work or the acquiring of assets.

I just don't see where the money can come from other than megacorp but that has it's own problems of forcing the entire modern world out of a nation that plans on doing a good old Robin Hood on them.

The higher tax payers (doctors and lawyers for example) also won't really be able to afford it.

Let's say you have 10 people. The average they make is reflective of general society of say 30000 annually. Half of them make less at 12000. The top 5 have two making 35000 and the top three making 50k to 60k.

A UBI of say 20k each will add up to 200k a year. The tax payers will have to pay practically 100% tax. Clearly, this is slavery.

You mention rinsing corps which is the only viable option but what'll make them stay if they're gonna get fleeced?



funeralxempire
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12 May 2023, 7:51 am

Nades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
When bottom earners are given money, they're forced to spend it. This is a form of stimulus for an economy.

I'm in favour of driving up the cost of labour, if businesses need to find savings they can always trim some executive positions.


But still, who's paying for it? Also it's unearned income that's not linked to work or the acquiring of assets.

I just don't see where the money can come from other than megacorp but that has it's own problems of forcing the entire modern world out of a nation that plans on doing a good old Robin Hood on them.

The higher tax payers (doctors and lawyers for example) also won't really be able to afford it.

Let's say you have 10 people. The average they make is reflective of general society of say 30000 annually. Half of them make less at 12000. The top 5 have two making 35000 and the top three making 50k to 60k.

A UBI of say 20k each will add up to 200k a year. The tax payers will have to pay practically 100% tax. Clearly, this is slavery.

You mention rinsing corps which is the only viable option but what'll make them stay if they're gonna get fleeced?


The same people who pay for everything else.

You seem to want specifics as though I have a bill to propose and you seem to be under the impression that UBI would entirely replace wages for some people, which is a foolish assumption to make.

Your entire position seems to be any form of UBI is impossible because the UBI I imagine can't be implemented and that's not a very solid position.

Why is it that when the discussion involves more social spending people are so quick to insist it's not possible, but yet whenever the discussion is corporate tax rates or tax rates for top earners there's always money for tax cuts.

If you want to rebuild the middle class, at some point we need to reverse the trend of shifting tax burdens increasingly on to less wealthy people. That means shifting some of the burden back on to top earners.


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12 May 2023, 8:26 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Nades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
When bottom earners are given money, they're forced to spend it. This is a form of stimulus for an economy.

I'm in favour of driving up the cost of labour, if businesses need to find savings they can always trim some executive positions.


But still, who's paying for it? Also it's unearned income that's not linked to work or the acquiring of assets.

I just don't see where the money can come from other than megacorp but that has it's own problems of forcing the entire modern world out of a nation that plans on doing a good old Robin Hood on them.

The higher tax payers (doctors and lawyers for example) also won't really be able to afford it.

Let's say you have 10 people. The average they make is reflective of general society of say 30000 annually. Half of them make less at 12000. The top 5 have two making 35000 and the top three making 50k to 60k.

A UBI of say 20k each will add up to 200k a year. The tax payers will have to pay practically 100% tax. Clearly, this is slavery.

You mention rinsing corps which is the only viable option but what'll make them stay if they're gonna get fleeced?


The same people who pay for everything else.

You seem to want specifics as though I have a bill to propose and you seem to be under the impression that UBI would entirely replace wages for some people, which is a foolish assumption to make.

Your entire position seems to be any form of UBI is impossible because the UBI I imagine can't be implemented and that's not a very solid position.

Why is it that when the discussion involves more social spending people are so quick to insist it's not possible, but yet whenever the discussion is corporate tax rates or tax rates for top earners there's always money for tax cuts.

If you want to rebuild the middle class, at some point we need to reverse the trend of shifting tax burdens increasingly on to less wealthy people. That means shifting some of the burden back on to top earners.


Many average folk are going to pay for it? I don't get how it will ever work mainly because companies can and do leave when legislation and finances are no longer in their favour.

For some people on trials of UBI, it did replace wages. A lot of the time when UBI is proposed it's at a high enough level to replace a wage and I often hear the idea floated around that UBI should be means tested and only available to the poor which wouldn't make it UBI anymore.

Any proposals for free money seems to have ulterior motives behind it.



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12 May 2023, 8:34 am

First you build a strawman, then you argue it's not feasible based on that strawman. That's less than persuasive.


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12 May 2023, 8:39 am

Nades wrote:

Saving or contributing to a pension isn't free money though.



If you are retired, and withdrawing money from, say, an individual retirement account (IRA), into which you have placed money while working, you are still dependent on other people working, and putting money into the stock market (if your IRA is in a stock market account) so that there will be funds that you can withdraw.

To you, at this point in your life, it is essentially free money. While you were paying into it, you were providing free money to other retirees.


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12 May 2023, 8:59 am

Instead of UBI, a program like this would be more beneficial to the country:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_ ... tion_Corps

The lesson to be learned: People need to earn their own way in life, not just take it away from others.