NTs thinking we are doing 'power moves'

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Campingbare
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30 Nov 2023, 6:56 pm

KitLily wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Because we are, we just aren't aware that's what we're doing.

I'm not, I'm just correcting incorrect information so the person has all the correct facts. Why wouldn't they want the correct facts/information? What if they made a mistake and got into trouble/danger because no one had given them the correct information? I'm helping them, even saving them.

Absolutely!

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cyberdad
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30 Nov 2023, 7:34 pm

KitLily wrote:

I read that humans must have been generally co-operative since we evolved, rather than competitive and selfish, or we wouldn't still be here now. But it looks like competitiveness and selfishness are now increasing.

Both are true. In modern times (as Blitzkreig mentioned) social media has increased the traits of self-centeredness and narcissism) in almost everyone who uses social media. I don't but I am an outlier.

Even my 87 year old mother uses social media from the time it started in the 2000s and I have seen how it has transformed her.

NTs are programmed to be socially cooperative as its been a successful survival mode for our ancestors. Social cooperation was necessary as we traversed the African savannah searching for food.

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30 Nov 2023, 9:46 pm

BillyTree wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Personally, I consider that trait to be a giant red flag about that person, not the people they insist are bad.

I don't. That said, I think today's society doesn't create more psychopaths or narcissists but reward these traits more. Especially when it comes to women by reframing it as "strong women", "powerful women" or "a woman with a strong will". People that are kind or empathic are seen as "weak".

I do think you're right that society tries to encourage more selfish individualism than any culture did a few generations ago.

I've heard this discussed as a symptom of late stage capitalism, but regardless of that angle, it does seem to be occurring.

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funeralxempire
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30 Nov 2023, 9:55 pm

KitLily wrote:

I think it's likely that it's been both. We cooperate with us and compete with them. How we define us and them seems to be very fluid and prone to change as it suits us.

I think modern society encourages people to see us as much smaller units than might have been common historically, but at the same time, I don't think that means most of those people qualify for personality disorder diagnoses.

But also, based on old fashioned stereotypes of small towns, different church communities and a lot of other seemingly traditional slices of life, I get the feeling people back in the "good ol' days" were pretty sh***y, self-serving and two-faced as well and that all of the needless oneupmanship and pecking order games have been around as long as people have lived near other people.

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DuckHairback
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01 Dec 2023, 6:30 am

funeralxempire wrote:

But also, based on old fashioned stereotypes of small towns, different church communities and a lot of other seemingly traditional slices of life, I get the feeling people back in the "good ol' days" were pretty sh***y, self-serving and two-faced as well and that all of the needless oneupmanship and pecking order games have been around as long as people have lived near other people.

This is what I mean about necessity. In the past, if you acted like a jerk in your local community, the ramifications were serious because your local community was probably your source of everything: food, shelter, employment, social interaction. That necessity acted as a brake on our worst impulses, and when we transgressed it was essential to make amends. Now there's no reason why you can't piss off your next door neighbour and simply never interact with them again. You can find friends elsewhere, it doesn't matter if the neighbours tell people what you did because Tesco doesn't care when it sells you food and your employer is 30 miles away and has no investment in your local community. You can just keep sh*****g the bed and move on to another bed.

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bee33
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01 Dec 2023, 10:31 am

DuckHairback wrote:

But I would think that those small-town communities would have been a nightmare for those of us who don't fit in or are at least partially clueless about social niceties. I would be so easy to unknowingly do something wrong and become a pariah. I shudder to think!

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01 Dec 2023, 10:49 am

funeralxempire wrote:

KitLily wrote:

Sorry *who* is labelling? I've lost track. Do you mean those broadcasting their views are labelling?

One will encounter people who are quick to insist all the people they're incapable of getting along with are narcissists or psychopaths or similar.

Personally, I consider that trait to be a giant red flag about that person, not the people they insist are bad.

Oh general people, I see. Not a type of person.

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KitLily
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01 Dec 2023, 10:54 am

DuckHairback wrote:

Increasing as a response to the way we've constructed our society, I'd say. I doubt we're actually any less co-operatives when we need to be. The trouble is that we don't need to be. In fact, we're encouraged to be competitive and selfish.

But I agree with funeralxempire that it's a mistake to label people as narcissists or psychopaths because it's like drawing a line under them - you don't need to know anything else about them at point, you can just write them off. Competitive and selfish behaviour can make people appear that way, if you don't care to look deeper.

Yes, society today is CAPITALIST in big red letters. Where money rules and we have to compete to survive. A bit like the Hunger Games. But I suspect that when humans had a range of lethal predators against them e.g. bears, big cats, wolves, they had to be co-operative with each other 24/7. We don't live in dangerous environments like that now so we can compete with other humans over everything instead of co-operate.

It does depend on who the person is and how long you've been observing them. We could say Trump is a narcissist because of all the evidence we have, but in the end he's just some distant figure. Whereas my mother, who I've known for over 50 years in a close relationship, fits the narcissist profile perfectly and I'm confident to define her as that.

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KitLily
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01 Dec 2023, 10:57 am

cyberdad wrote:

KitLily wrote:

I'm not quite sure what you're saying but yes, people had to be co-operative for most of history to find food, shelter, fight off predators, build homes. When the environment was against us, we had to stick together.

Now we don't because we can get anything we need with the click of a button.

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KitLily
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01 Dec 2023, 11:04 am

funeralxempire wrote:

I think modern society encourages people to see us as much smaller units than might have been common historically, but at the same time, I don't think that means most of those people qualify for personality disorder diagnoses.

But also, based on old fashioned stereotypes of small towns, different church communities and a lot of other seemingly traditional slices of life, I get the feeling people back in the "good ol' days" were pretty sh***y, self-serving and two-faced as well and that all of the needless oneupmanship and pecking order games have been around as long as people have lived near other people.

Yes it does encourage people to see us as smaller units.

Apparently the best times humans had were stone age, because humans were so few and far between that they were generally uncompetitive and pleased to see each other.

But of course the stone age had some major downsides! :lol:

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KitLily
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01 Dec 2023, 11:11 am

DuckHairback wrote:

I think that is so true. There are no permanent communities anymore and people can behave how they like because there's always a group of new friends and colleagues the next day. They can just move on from those they hurt.

For example. The Norse Vikings held a meeting every month I think, called the Althing or Thing. They had a schedule where everyone would talk about something that had happened to them in the community that month, and if a person had done something wrong, they would make amends e.g. cheated with someone's spouse, stolen their property, fought with their relatives.

The community elders would decide on a punishment according to the community laws and rituals, and justice would be done. The justice was rarely something fatal, because the community needed every person to play their part for the community to survive e.g. you couldn't hang the baker because there would be no bread for everyone.

I am sure that until recently every community had this sort of thing (hence the word 'thing' still being used today) because everyone needed to get along with each other to survive.

We have no need of other people these days so we don't need to get along with anyone else.

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KitLily
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01 Dec 2023, 11:20 am

bee33 wrote:

I think it depends on whether you had a close knit family to protect you. If you were part of a big family, and everyone was before contraception, your relatives would just say 'oh that's just Uncle George, he likes talking about types of horses all the time.' 'oh that's just how Cousin Mary is- she doesn't talk much, she's shy.' Or whatever.

You would have been born into the local family and lived there all your life, you were just part of the furniture.

It would be difficult to fit into a small town community if you were a stranger with no family around to accept you.

I think it's what's happened to me in this small village I live in. Everyone was born here, they're all related to each other and I'm 'the weird stranger' so I have not been accepted.

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01 Dec 2023, 7:26 pm

KitLily wrote:

Now we don't because we can get anything we need with the click of a button.

Yes infact the culture we live in some call "Click and Collect". It's not just whimsically ordering stuff over the internet. Even people working in professional roles can put data in and click a button and software churns out the answer.

In addition to promoting self-centeredness, social media profiles have become an extension of most people whether it be social or professional. We manufacture the type of profile we want the world to see.

So increasingly the so called "power moves" happen online.

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02 Dec 2023, 12:16 am

Just to put some more context on one of my earlier points.

In the last 20 years we are seeing an inevitable transition of our personal identities being exaggerated online personas that distort the reality of our true personality/self to other people. This exaggeration also happens when we meet people F2F but is even more distorted online. We tend to amplify our personality to gain more "clicks".

Relationships (rather than becoming enhanced) become para-social and less intimate. It may even be possible to be friends with a fictional manifestion of a real person. This is going to become worse when we all use AI to write for us, the AI software will essentially manufacture a persona. The boundaries between the simulated and real world will over time become blurred.

What happens over time is the user becomes disassociated with their own persona as they take on elements of their online persona they are pushing to others. Other people then create their version of your simulated persona in their heads.

I think this (at least partly) explains the current generation undergoing an identity crisis in not knowing what is real, authentic or fake. Trust in governments and government agencies are at an all time low. But conversely globalisation and the internet has homogenised identity. We are slowly becoming clones.

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02 Dec 2023, 8:23 am

cyberdad wrote:

Yes, we can get *anything* we want these days. This has sent humans off on a very selfish and unnatural track of evolution.

Unfortunately the only thing we *can't* get are friendships. Those do not happen at the click of a button. They take time, work, presence, empathy etc. Not something you can get at the click of a button. The same goes for love relationships I suppose.

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KitLily
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02 Dec 2023, 8:25 am

cyberdad wrote:

I couldn't agree more, well put!

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