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Cornflake
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05 Dec 2023, 12:41 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
There's no point in trigger warning on a post dealing with self-harm in a thread where that's a reasonable expectation of content in the thread and it's appropriate to the subforum.
Uh yes, that's kinda the broader point - the thread's title should be flagged with a trigger warning.


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Dec 2023, 12:44 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
I remain commited to the notion that trigger warnings only make sense for content that adheres to the policies of the particular subform to which it is posted and if the comment is in some fashion not something that people seeing the forum, subform and topic title would expect to see.
How do you know what people would expect to see? People wanting to talk about depression in The Haven might not expect to see mention of suicide and be triggered by it nonetheless. If in doubt, using trigger labels is a good idea. It's not like it takes much effort to use them, especially taking into account the potential benefits.


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Cornflake
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05 Dec 2023, 12:45 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Something else that people need to avoid doing is bringing up a member's trauma. Just because I've talked about stuff openly doesn't mean that it's fair game in any conversation. I don't always want to talk or think about it. It's especially distasteful when people bring it up to make a point. Trigger warnings wouldn't help with that. In any case, unless I talk about it, it's not an appropriate topic to mention or discuss.



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Absolutely - but much of this distasteful commentary is likely prohibited already by the site or Haven rules, so it should be reported (as I know you both would :heart: ).


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IsabellaLinton
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05 Dec 2023, 12:49 pm

I think it's fair to say we can't know everyone's specific triggers or the extent to which they cause harm. Some people are triggered by things which others would find surprising, because they aren't traditionally associated with trauma. I'm sure we've all made mistakes and said things which we thought were innocuous, but they triggered others. I have some of those triggers myself and I don't expect everyone to know what they are or how they function. For the most part I deal with them on my own in trauma therapy so I can react appropriately and not blame innocent offenders.

The topic here is more about topics which we know could be / are triggering to people. These topics should be handled with sensitivity wherever possible. Topics like violence, extreme humiliation, emotional abuse, etc., are no-brainers in my opinion. Even if a thread is started on that topic, contributions should be considerate of the OP as well as other members who might post. Contributors to trauma topics have usually experienced PTSD themselves.


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Dec 2023, 12:58 pm

Cornflake wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Something else that people need to avoid doing is bringing up a member's trauma. Just because I've talked about stuff openly doesn't mean that it's fair game in any conversation. I don't always want to talk or think about it. It's especially distasteful when people bring it up to make a point. Trigger warnings wouldn't help with that. In any case, unless I talk about it, it's not an appropriate topic to mention or discuss.



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{{{ hugs TP }}}
Absolutely - but much of this distasteful commentary is likely prohibited already by the site or Haven rules, so it should be reported (as I know you both would :heart: ).

I make reports when I think that something could be breaking the rules, but I'm not always certain if it is or isn't, like the situations in my quote for example.


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Cornflake
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05 Dec 2023, 1:03 pm

That's fine, do please continue making reports about anything troubling you.
Rule breaks aren't always a simple tick-box affair.


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IsabellaLinton
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05 Dec 2023, 3:35 pm

Cornflake wrote:
... much of this distasteful commentary is likely prohibited already by the site or Haven rules, so it should be reported


That's a good point about Haven rules.
What I've noticed though, is that people with Adult-related trauma don't post in Haven.
We post in Adult because of the subject nature.

Some people think disclosures in Adult aren't covered by Haven rules.
I suppose, technically, they aren't.

In TP's case I've seen people take her Adult disclosures and mock them.
Sometimes it happens in Adult, and sometimes they're referenced elsewhere.

I don't talk much about what my trauma was, but I try to educate in Adult.
I talk about the repercussions of SA, like how to date again after assault.
Sometimes that's been mocked as "pornography", etc. when I'm trying to teach.

I wonder if a good solution would be to create an "Adult Haven" with Haven rules.
That way the content can be adult but still be protected like Haven material.
Would it be possible to have an Adult Haven sticky?

People could still choose to use the regular Haven, or regular Adult.
I just think it might solve some of the problems we've been experiencing.

Thoughts?


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Raleigh
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05 Dec 2023, 4:36 pm

Trigger warnings have been found by several reputable studies to provoke anticipatory anxiety, so the anxiety is heightened by them.

How are we going to warn people of the trigger warnings?

I actually find this thread very triggering.
Seriously.


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Dec 2023, 4:49 pm

I would much rather see a trigger warning than content I wouldn’t have read otherwise.


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IsabellaLinton
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05 Dec 2023, 6:50 pm

That's fair, Raleigh.
I can see that.
People with PTSD will all have different thoughts on this topic.

I get kind of stressed by seeing TW's too, because my imagination goes wild.
Those dots

;
;
;
;

actually tempt people to take a look, imo.


The difference is that you still demonstrate respect for other people with trauma.
You don't go around invalidating people, shaming them, or saying triggering things.
That's despite having your own PTSD.

Big hugs.


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The_Walrus
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05 Dec 2023, 8:36 pm

It's not easy.

I feel like there are some things that almost everyone would agree should not be just foist upon people. An obvious one is pornography, for example, which is prohibited on WrongPlanet. There are things that are worse than pornography and again the things I'm thinking of are also prohibited.

I don't dispute that, for example, some people find cats or food very upsetting. I suspect tagging things like "TW: cats, food" doesn't do much good in most situations. But maybe if someone wants to discuss something in a lot of detail, they could use a spoiler tag and say what is in the tag. Maybe, as an illustrative example, the word "food" isn't going to upset someone too badly, but the detailed description of a banquet might do. It seems likely to me that there is a point between posting uncensored hardcore pornography and "warning: I am about to say "cat", so stop reading if you don't want to read that", but it's really hard for anyone to know exactly where that point is, especially as it's going to be contextual and subjective for each person.



MatchboxVagabond
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05 Dec 2023, 11:20 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
I remain commited to the notion that trigger warnings only make sense for content that adheres to the policies of the particular subform to which it is posted and if the comment is in some fashion not something that people seeing the forum, subform and topic title would expect to see.
How do you know what people would expect to see? People wanting to talk about depression in The Haven might not expect to see mention of suicide and be triggered by it nonetheless. If in doubt, using trigger labels is a good idea. It's not like it takes much effort to use them, especially taking into account the potential benefits.

How do you know what to trigger warn. Which is sort of the point. You don't know anymore than I do. I remember being seriously triggered by things and if the things weren't there, my eyes would just make them appear.

And no, it's not a good idea, it's a horrible idea. If you've got an adequately clear topic subject, then all the TW does is grant license to be more triggering than is reasonably necessary. If you don't have a clear subject, then a TW is kind of a moot point.

Like I said earlier, I'm not likely to change my opinion on this any time soon. I just wish people would be a bit more honest about the impact that trigger warnings really have as you can't sanitize the internet.



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05 Dec 2023, 11:45 pm

No one is saying they should be mandatory.
They aren't being written into the rules, and no one suggested they should be.

The question was about what WP's policy was.
The answer was that there is no policy.

We then discussed how other places handle sensitive material.
People gave input.

Personally, I use them if I know my material might trigger someone.
Usually I'm thinking of a specific person depending on the topic.
I use warnings if I still think my words have enough merit to be posted.

For example, I might know that Member A is triggered by Topic B.
I still think most people would benefit from my info on Topic B.
I would post it with a TW unless they've told me they don't like them.

It's a consideration of what I would do for others, in some cases.
I'm not telling others what they should do for me.
I'd appreciate TW sometimes, but I know that's often unrealistic.

The main thing I want regarding trauma is to be taken seriously ffs.
This BS of people asking if my trauma "really happened" has to stop.


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05 Dec 2023, 11:53 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
How do you know what to trigger warn. Which is sort of the point. You don't know anymore than I do.

Sensitive material includes stuff like mentioning or discussing SA, physical abuse, suicide, eating disorders, and self harm. It's really not that complex. It's just common curtesy in my opinion and doesn't seem that unreasonable for a support forum.

Yes, people can be triggered by other things, but it makes sense to be sensitive about common triggers, especially for people with PTSD. Many people on WP have PTSD.


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06 Dec 2023, 3:21 am

I recently read an article about Trigger Warnings not being effective & in some cases even more distressing :arrow:

Are Trigger Warnings Useless? New Study Says Yes
https://www.drugs.com/news/trigger-warn ... 15580.html

Quote:
TUESDAY, Oct. 17, 2023 -- "Trigger warnings" are now widely accepted as away to help people avoid harm from disturbing content. Trouble is, they just don't work, according to new research.

Trigger warnings seem like an obvious good: They alert people that a book, video or other media will depict a fraught topic such as sexual assault, abuse or suicide.

Forewarned, consumers can skip the content or at least be emotionally prepared for it.

The problem is, trigger warnings appear to be ineffective at best — and maybe even be harmful in some cases, according to the recent analysis of a dozen studies.

The researchers found that while there was evidence that trigger warnings sometimes caused "anticipatory" anxiety, they did nothing to relieve the distress of viewing sensitive material. Nor did the warnings deter people from viewing potentially disturbing content; in fact, they sometimes drew folks in.

In sum, the studies "almost unanimously" suggest that trigger warnings do not work as intended, according to senior researcher Victoria Bridgland of Flinders University in Australia.

Why then are trigger warnings so prevalent, from college classrooms to theaters and art galleries to news articles and social media posts?

Once they caught on, they simply kept growing — likely driven by a sense that they seemed like the "right thing to do," Bridgland said.

"This is probably because we have a culturally ingrained notion that 'to be forewarned is to be forearmed' — which seems to be really hard to extinguish, despite evidence to the contrary," Bridgland said.

Guy Boysen, a professor of psychology at McKendree University, in Lebanon, Ill., made a similar point.

"This is a classic example of a 'call to action,' without scientific evidence," said Boysen, who was not involved in the review.

Trigger warnings emerged in the internet's early days, on websites and blogs dedicated to feminist issues. They were attached to posts about topics that could be distressing, often sexual assault, so that readers could avoid or mentally prepare for the content.

The word "trigger," Boysen noted, borrows from the language of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). And trigger warnings had the good intention of helping people who wanted to avoid reminders of a personal trauma.

It sounds logical. But, he said, "the practice of using trigger warnings preceded any scientific investigation of the effects."

And after their early use in feminist media, "people kind of glommed onto it," Boysen said.

Trigger warnings spread into university classrooms and then into mainstream life — sometimes taking more generic terms like "content warnings" or "content notes."

It's only recently that researchers started to take a harder look at the effects of those warnings. The studies in Bridgland's review date to 2018; most were done in 2020 or later.

Each tested the impact of warnings tagged onto a video or text that contained potentially distressing content. Most often the advisory was dubbed "trigger warning," though some studies used the general term "warning." The studies involved a mix of trauma survivors and people with no such history.

Overall, the review found, study participants who read trigger warnings typically felt a bit more anxiety before reading or viewing any potentially distressing content compared to those who were not forewarned.

But there was no evidence that warnings blunted people's emotional reactions to distressing content.

As for whether warnings help vulnerable people avoid unwanted content, there was again no support for that: Across five studies that looked at "avoidance," warnings typically had no effect. In one, participants were actually more likely to read articles with trigger warnings than those without.

The findings — published online recently in the journal Clinical Psychological Science — came as no surprise to Boysen. He led one of the studies and is familiar with the body of research.

"In my mind, this is settled science," he said.

Why don't trigger warnings work?

To Boysen, a key issue is that they're too "general." When people do have a history of trauma, the things that "trigger" them are specific and vary widely among individuals.

Bridgland made another point: Warnings merely tell people that distressing things loom, and not what to do about it. In theory, warnings allow people to deploy their "coping strategies," but that's assuming they already have those strategies.

"People can mentally prepare themselves by using emotion regulation techniques," Bridgland said. "However, they have to be specifically instructed on how to do so."

People could still, of course, pass on the labeled content. The problem there is that avoidance is a symptom of disorders like PTSD and phobias, Boysen said. Therapy for those conditions, in fact, aims to gradually reduce avoidance, so that people's traumas and fears have less power.

A 2020 study in the review found that trigger warnings may do the opposite: They can increase the extent to which some people see their trauma as central to their identity.

Despite it all, Boysen does not see an end to the trigger warning in sight. On college campuses they are increasingly regarded as a way to show students that their well-being is important, he noted.

And as an educator himself, Boysen said he'd still warn students about potentially distressing classroom content.


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TwilightPrincess
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06 Dec 2023, 8:24 am

I've found trigger warnings helpful. Yes, people are triggered by different things, but there are specific things that a lot of people are triggered by. It's nice when that content can be avoided. That's my point. People will still be triggered by stuff, but I think it does help in specific situations. I'm saying this as a person with PTSD who has been triggered by content on WP in the past that could've been avoided.


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