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Was brexit a mistake?
Yes 86%  86%  [ 19 ]
No 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 22

Rossall
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02 Dec 2023, 2:55 am

I'm starting to think so. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was undecided but now I definitely think we should rejoin the EU. Here's the reply I got from Bing chat:

Brexit is a complex and controversial topic that has divided the British public and politicians for years. Whether Brexit was a mistake or not depends on one’s perspective and values, but there are some facts and opinions that can help shed some light on this question.

According to a recent poll by YouGov, a majority of British voters (57%) now believe that Brexit was a mistake, while only 32% think it was the right decision1. This is the highest share of voters who regret leaving the EU since the referendum in June 2016, when 52% voted to leave and 48% voted to remain. The poll also shows that 19% of those who voted to leave now wish they had voted to remain, while only 3% of those who voted to remain have changed their minds in favour of leaving1.

Some of the reasons why people may think that Brexit was a mistake include:

The negative impact of Brexit on the UK economy, trade, immigration, and standards. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that Brexit will reduce the UK’s GDP in the long-term by 4%, which is double the impact of Covid-192. Brexit has also added 6% to food prices, according to some estimates2, and has caused difficulties for many sectors, such as farming, fishing, manufacturing, care, and culture, due to new rules, regulations, and barriers2. Brexit has also reduced the UK’s access to the EU’s single market and customs union, which accounts for about half of the UK’s trade3. Moreover, Brexit has not delivered on the promise of reducing immigration, as the UK has seen a surge in non-EU immigration to unprecedented levels2. Brexit has also raised concerns about the UK’s ability to maintain high standards in areas such as food safety, environmental protection, and workers’ rights, as the UK may seek to diverge from the EU’s rules in order to strike new trade deals with other countries2.

The political and social consequences of Brexit, such as the threat to the UK’s unity, the loss of influence and reputation in the world, and the damage to democracy and trust. Brexit has created tensions and challenges for the UK’s devolved nations, especially Northern Ireland, which has a special status under the Brexit deal that requires checks on goods moving between Great Britain and Northern Ireland2. This has caused disruptions, protests, and violence in the region, as well as increased support for Irish reunification2. Brexit has also weakened the UK’s role and voice in the world, as it has lost its membership and influence in the EU, which is a major economic and political bloc4. Brexit has also harmed the UK’s reputation and credibility, as it has been seen as a sign of isolationism, nationalism, and populism4. Furthermore, Brexit has undermined the UK’s democracy and trust, as it has been based on a campaign that was marked by “an unprecedented readiness to lie”, according to former EU president Donald Tusk4. Brexit has also exposed the flaws and weaknesses of the UK’s political system, such as the lack of a written constitution, the dominance of the executive, and the marginalisation of parliament and the courts2.

However, some people may still think that Brexit was the right decision, or at least not a mistake, for reasons such as:

The potential benefits of Brexit, such as the opportunity to regain sovereignty, control, and freedom. Some Brexit supporters argue that leaving the EU has enabled the UK to “take back control” of its laws, borders, money, and trade, and to pursue its own national interests and values2. They claim that Brexit has restored the UK’s sovereignty and democracy, and has freed the UK from the EU’s bureaucracy, regulations, and interference2. They also point to the UK’s success in rolling out Covid-19 vaccines as an example of the advantages of being outside the EU2.

The optimism and resilience of Brexit, such as the belief that the UK can overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities of leaving the EU. Some Brexit supporters maintain that the UK has the potential and the capacity to thrive and prosper outside the EU, and that the difficulties and costs of Brexit are temporary and worth paying2. They argue that the UK can forge new and better trade deals with other countries, such as the US, India, and Australia, and that the UK can innovate and adapt to the changing global environment2. They also express confidence and pride in the UK’s history, culture, and identity, and that the UK can be a positive and influential force in the world2.

In conclusion, whether Brexit was a mistake or not is a matter of opinion and perspective, but there are some facts and arguments that can help inform and enrich the debate. Based on the latest polls, it seems that more and more people in the UK are leaning towards the view that Brexit was a mistake, but there are still some who disagree or are undecided. Brexit is a complex and controversial issue that has shaped and will continue to shape the UK’s future for years to come.


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goldfish21
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02 Dec 2023, 4:50 pm

Rossall wrote:
I'm starting to think so. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was undecided but now I definitely think we should rejoin the EU. Here's the reply I got from Bing chat:[I]

...

The optimism and resilience of Brexit, such as the belief that the UK can overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities of leaving the EU. Some Brexit supporters maintain that the UK has the potential and the capacity to thrive and prosper outside the EU, and that the difficulties and costs of Brexit are temporary and worth paying2. They argue that the UK can forge new and better trade deals with other countries, such as the US, India, and Australia, and that the UK can innovate and adapt to the changing global environment2. They also express confidence and pride in the UK’s history, culture, and identity, and that the UK can be a positive and influential force in the world2.


I've always thought it was a dumb move.. cutting the UK off of their closest trade partners and complicating things unnecessarily was a sure fire way to limit business prospects and increase costs of business that does happen. And for what? To satisfy some folks' anger at immigration policies? Silly. But they voted for it and now they have to pay for it's associated costs.

:lol: At being able to do better deals with the USA, IMO. We have free trade agreements with them and are right next door.. we're very dependant on the USA for trade, but so many American firms won't do business with Canada at all due to shipping paperwork they don't want to fill out and deal with, so they only sell within the USA. On a larger scale, they don't want to have to create labels for products for sale in Canada that also have French on them. Americans like to keep things as super simple as possible.. no fuss no muss, sooo if the UK complicates things by having a bunch of UK specific regulations and paperwork to be done vs. the same standard stuff done for the entire EU, my best guess is that UK firms will have to sell their products at a discount to entice Americans into bothering with the paperwork. Not such a great business model for UK producers..


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blitzkrieg
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02 Dec 2023, 4:53 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Rossall wrote:
I'm starting to think so. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was undecided but now I definitely think we should rejoin the EU. Here's the reply I got from Bing chat:[I]

...

The optimism and resilience of Brexit, such as the belief that the UK can overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities of leaving the EU. Some Brexit supporters maintain that the UK has the potential and the capacity to thrive and prosper outside the EU, and that the difficulties and costs of Brexit are temporary and worth paying2. They argue that the UK can forge new and better trade deals with other countries, such as the US, India, and Australia, and that the UK can innovate and adapt to the changing global environment2. They also express confidence and pride in the UK’s history, culture, and identity, and that the UK can be a positive and influential force in the world2.


I've always thought it was a dumb move.. cutting the UK off of their closest trade partners and complicating things unnecessarily was a sure fire way to limit business prospects and increase costs of business that does happen. And for what? To satisfy some folks' anger at immigration policies? Silly. But they voted for it and now they have to pay for it's associated costs.

:lol: At being able to do better deals with the USA, IMO. We have free trade agreements with them and are right next door.. we're very dependant on the USA for trade, but so many American firms won't do business with Canada at all due to shipping paperwork they don't want to fill out and deal with, so they only sell within the USA. On a larger scale, they don't want to have to create labels for products for sale in Canada that also have French on them. Americans like to keep things as super simple as possible.. no fuss no muss, sooo if the UK complicates things by having a bunch of UK specific regulations and paperwork to be done vs. the same standard stuff done for the entire EU, my best guess is that UK firms will have to sell their products at a discount to entice Americans into bothering with the paperwork. Not such a great business model for UK producers..


You are not wrong in making the point that having a unique set of regulations and paperwork for the UK, actually hinders UK business, particularly that business which is done with the EU rather than domestically.

Pretty much any possible advantage of leaving the EU hasn't been utilised anyway, thus far. Which is why a lot of people regret Brexit.



goldfish21
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02 Dec 2023, 5:11 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Rossall wrote:
I'm starting to think so. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was undecided but now I definitely think we should rejoin the EU. Here's the reply I got from Bing chat:[I]

...

The optimism and resilience of Brexit, such as the belief that the UK can overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities of leaving the EU. Some Brexit supporters maintain that the UK has the potential and the capacity to thrive and prosper outside the EU, and that the difficulties and costs of Brexit are temporary and worth paying2. They argue that the UK can forge new and better trade deals with other countries, such as the US, India, and Australia, and that the UK can innovate and adapt to the changing global environment2. They also express confidence and pride in the UK’s history, culture, and identity, and that the UK can be a positive and influential force in the world2.


I've always thought it was a dumb move.. cutting the UK off of their closest trade partners and complicating things unnecessarily was a sure fire way to limit business prospects and increase costs of business that does happen. And for what? To satisfy some folks' anger at immigration policies? Silly. But they voted for it and now they have to pay for it's associated costs.

:lol: At being able to do better deals with the USA, IMO. We have free trade agreements with them and are right next door.. we're very dependant on the USA for trade, but so many American firms won't do business with Canada at all due to shipping paperwork they don't want to fill out and deal with, so they only sell within the USA. On a larger scale, they don't want to have to create labels for products for sale in Canada that also have French on them. Americans like to keep things as super simple as possible.. no fuss no muss, sooo if the UK complicates things by having a bunch of UK specific regulations and paperwork to be done vs. the same standard stuff done for the entire EU, my best guess is that UK firms will have to sell their products at a discount to entice Americans into bothering with the paperwork. Not such a great business model for UK producers..


You are not wrong in making the point that having a unique set of regulations and paperwork for the UK, actually hinders UK business, particularly that business which is done with the EU rather than domestically.

Pretty much any possible advantage of leaving the EU hasn't been utilised anyway, thus far. Which is why a lot of people regret Brexit.

..all of which was entirely foreseeable so it makes no sense that people voted to increase complexity & costs of trade thinking that somehow magically that was going to benefit the UK economy.. wtF?


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blitzkrieg
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02 Dec 2023, 5:33 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
blitzkrieg wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Rossall wrote:
I'm starting to think so. I didn't vote in the referendum as I was undecided but now I definitely think we should rejoin the EU. Here's the reply I got from Bing chat:[I]

...

The optimism and resilience of Brexit, such as the belief that the UK can overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities of leaving the EU. Some Brexit supporters maintain that the UK has the potential and the capacity to thrive and prosper outside the EU, and that the difficulties and costs of Brexit are temporary and worth paying2. They argue that the UK can forge new and better trade deals with other countries, such as the US, India, and Australia, and that the UK can innovate and adapt to the changing global environment2. They also express confidence and pride in the UK’s history, culture, and identity, and that the UK can be a positive and influential force in the world2.


I've always thought it was a dumb move.. cutting the UK off of their closest trade partners and complicating things unnecessarily was a sure fire way to limit business prospects and increase costs of business that does happen. And for what? To satisfy some folks' anger at immigration policies? Silly. But they voted for it and now they have to pay for it's associated costs.

:lol: At being able to do better deals with the USA, IMO. We have free trade agreements with them and are right next door.. we're very dependant on the USA for trade, but so many American firms won't do business with Canada at all due to shipping paperwork they don't want to fill out and deal with, so they only sell within the USA. On a larger scale, they don't want to have to create labels for products for sale in Canada that also have French on them. Americans like to keep things as super simple as possible.. no fuss no muss, sooo if the UK complicates things by having a bunch of UK specific regulations and paperwork to be done vs. the same standard stuff done for the entire EU, my best guess is that UK firms will have to sell their products at a discount to entice Americans into bothering with the paperwork. Not such a great business model for UK producers..


You are not wrong in making the point that having a unique set of regulations and paperwork for the UK, actually hinders UK business, particularly that business which is done with the EU rather than domestically.

Pretty much any possible advantage of leaving the EU hasn't been utilised anyway, thus far. Which is why a lot of people regret Brexit.

..all of which was entirely foreseeable so it makes no sense that people voted to increase complexity & costs of trade thinking that somehow magically that was going to benefit the UK economy.. wtF?


I think that most people wanted to vote Brexit because of misguided economic hopes from exiting the EU and probably most of all - the immigration topic, of which most people who voted Brexit I think wanted to seek an improvement in this area.

Although I'm not sure a lot of those voters realised that non-EU immigration wouldn't change and that exiting the EU only really made it harder for EU migrants to move to the UK.



Honey69
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02 Dec 2023, 6:55 pm

Rossall wrote:
I didn't vote in the referendum as I was undecided


As I recall, most voters in the UK didn't understand the ramifications at all, and just voted anyway. It passed just narrowly.


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02 Dec 2023, 11:49 pm

Honey69 wrote:
As I recall, most voters in the UK didn't understand the ramifications at all, and just voted anyway. It passed just narrowly.

Yes it was narrow, and the outcome showed the weakness of the first-past-the-post system. It was a fluke. Opinion polls had repeatedly shown that the public was very slightly in favour of staying in. I'd been rather hoping for a compromise, given the size of the remain vote. When May was getting Parliament to vote on each of several Brexit agreement plans, the one that came closest to being passed was for a Customs Union - it failed by just 8 votes. I think that would have kept open trade with the EU, and if they'd just managed to persuade 5 members to switch sides and had another vote, it would have passed, and the red tape for business and the rising food prices could have been avoided. But no. The whole Brexit thing was deemed irreconcilable under May, so they chucked her out and brought in Boris, who bulldozed a hard Brexit through as "honouring the people's will."

As for cutting immigration, it was never going to happen with Brexit or without it. Pre-Brexit, the UK could have legally opted out of the influx of Eastern European migrants, but didn't bother. The EU was never really the cause of that much immigration. And it won't happen now because the economy and the NHS needs immigration. But hey, Boris "got Brexit done," all tough and decisive like, and now a sizeable majority wishes they'd never done it, and if there was another referendum tomorrow we'd be back in. But they'll not give us another referendum.



goldfish21
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03 Dec 2023, 12:42 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
But they'll not give us another referendum.

“They,” being the EU vs UK politicians ?

I’d imagine the EU won’t allow the UK to just yo-yo in and out and in and out - I’m sure they’re like “Nah bro, you made your bed now lay in it.”


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03 Dec 2023, 12:46 am

I have always held the view that Brexit was a dire and stupid mistake.

I am sure that Russia and various superrich people used lies, halftruths and misinformation to get the useful idiots to vote for something which is and will continue to damge the interests of the UK


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ToughDiamond
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03 Dec 2023, 8:57 am

goldfish21 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
But they'll not give us another referendum.

“They,” being the EU vs UK politicians ?

I’d imagine the EU won’t allow the UK to just yo-yo in and out and in and out - I’m sure they’re like “Nah bro, you made your bed now lay in it.”

I meant the UK politicians. My intuition tells me the Tories don't have the guts to admit they were wrong to remove us (which the referendum didn't legally bind them to do), and Labour doesn't have the guts for a U-turn now that it's backed leaving.

It appears we can re-join:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... joining-eu

Back in the day when we first wanted to join, De Gaulle vetoed it, apparently on the grounds that the UK's economy was struggling(!) and that he feared that we were too supportive of American interests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ki ... %80%931973)

Whether or not any individual member state would still veto us, I don't know, but our current economic woes wouldn't help. We'd lose that 66% fee discount that Thatcher negotiated (I'd love to know the details of how she did that, as I can't believe the simplistic popular notion that it was her schoolma'am personality that did it), though we'd be free to try for another discount.



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03 Dec 2023, 10:22 am

Woodpecker wrote:

I am sure that Russia and various superrich people used lies, halftruths and misinformation to get the useful idiots to vote for something which is and will continue to damge the interests of the UK


It looks like Russia may have had a hand in it, but the British government doesn't want to know.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/brexit-bits- ... nce-brexit


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Rossall
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03 Dec 2023, 11:09 am

One word: FARAGE

The guy is a destructive turd that won't flush away.


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goldfish21
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03 Dec 2023, 11:57 am

Honey69 wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:

I am sure that Russia and various superrich people used lies, halftruths and misinformation to get the useful idiots to vote for something which is and will continue to damge the interests of the UK


It looks like Russia may have had a hand in it, but the British government doesn't want to know.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/brexit-bits- ... nce-brexit

I think it's likely that Russia has meddled in all sorts of elections via social media troll farms etc -> but also, probably Many other countries have done the same all over the world. Russia is probably just bigger and better at it, as well as a boogieman nemesis for Western countries to blame things on.

Also, CSIS means something entirely different in Canada: https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intel ... rvice.html


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03 Dec 2023, 12:06 pm

I had personal reasons for voting against- too many of my friends and family are spread across the world for that "batten down the hatches" mentality to appeal. But aside from that, even if Brexit theoretically might have had its good points, I just plain did not trust David Cameron's Conservative Party to enact it in a sensible, fair and non-corrupt manner. And surprise surprise, the administrations that put it into action after Cameron's resignation were even less honest and competant.


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goldfish21
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03 Dec 2023, 12:11 pm

PhosphorusDecree wrote:
I had personal reasons for voting against- too many of my friends and family are spread across the world for that "batten down the hatches" mentality to appeal. But aside from that, even if Brexit theoretically might have had its good points, I just plain did not trust David Cameron's Conservative Party to enact it in a sensible, fair and non-corrupt manner. And surprise surprise, the administrations that put it into action after Cameron's resignation were even less honest and competant.


I'm not questioning politicians lying or being slimy or not delivering as promised in the least bit... but, did the people not vote to leave the EU? Did the politicians not follow through with leaving the EU? How exactly can they put leaving the EU not in action properly? :? They left, didn't they?


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04 Dec 2023, 2:29 pm

I think the brits made a mistake when voting for Brexit. At this point I doubt UK will be welcome back in the forseeable future. And if and when UK is allowed to rejoin I think it will be on a shorter leash than before.


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