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MatchboxVagabond
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01 Feb 2024, 6:03 pm

Yugoslav1945 wrote:
sr71 wrote:
I sure we have all seen the news about the prisoner being executed by nitrogen gas. My personal opinion is on balance I do not agree with the death penalty. Not for religious or moral reasons but simply I would rather see 99 people that you may well think disserve to die because of the crimes they have committed spend the rest of there life in prison. Than the one innocent but convicted person put to death wrongly. also if I understand correctly Nitrogen gas is inert that is to say it has no effect when breathed in,It mealy replaces the oxygen in air. So if all that was available to breath had no oxygen you would lose consciousnesses very quickly and irreparable brain damage would follow shortly after followed by death.


Why the hell would they go with Nitrogen?? :skull:

If they want a painless death, why not euthanize?!

Because the drug manufacturers refuse to sell the medicine and most medical ethicists won't allow medical personnel to be involved.

Nitrogen itself would normally be completely painless and fast, the issue is that they had to have other people in the chamber that required a mask.

I don't personally support capital punishment for various reasons, but nitrogen done properly would be one of the most humane options possible.
belijojo wrote:
If the national finances can bear it

Historically the reason for capital punishment had to do with the logistics of keeping people locked up as much as anything else. It was common during the wild west period of US history for jails to be incapable of keeping people from escaping for long.



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02 Feb 2024, 8:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Yes. The law is a mix of notions from different eras.

Punishment, and out right vengence. Eye for an eye.

Then the Quakers brought religion into and it became "doing penitence" (that why they call big prisons "penitentiaries".

That paved the way for the secular notions of "rehabilitation".

Scandanavian countries seem to be able to have pure and real rehabilitation.

======

But if you're gonna have the death penality its not obvious what the most humane method is.

Though its thought of as an archaic and brutal method the guillotine was the first modern form of execution. Invented in Germany but named after the French doctor who advocated its use in the 18th century (when they began think about humane was to do it). Its ...cruel to folks witnessing it...but its was a big improvement over all of the Middle Ages techniques before it.

The used to hire a "headsmen" ...a big dude wielding a big axe...to chop off your head... and he would probably miss the mark five times before cut perfectly on the dotted line of your neck...damaging you severely before the "main event" even happned.

Using a machine to direct the weighted blade right down to the right line on your neck was...a pretty good way to just take of business rapidly and cleanly.

Youd prolly be conscious for a few seconds...after the chop...but it would then be "lights out".

Its still probably better than electrocution or other even more modern methods.


Drawing and quartering was a rather interesting way of punishment.


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02 Feb 2024, 2:05 pm

I am not sure about the death penalty, but i am p. Sure some people are so far gone in their mind morally speaking they should be isolated and shunned from society for the rest of their lives.

Like just today i heard about a man murdering a taxi driver that felt sorry for him since it was too cold and took him in. He murdered the driver in cold blood and while he was dying told the man "you should not trust everyone"
People like that are monsters. Especially people who have nothing to lose in life are the most dangerous kind since they dont even care if they go to jail



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02 Feb 2024, 2:44 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Yes. The law is a mix of notions from different eras.

Punishment, and out right vengence. Eye for an eye.

Then the Quakers brought religion into and it became "doing penitence" (that why they call big prisons "penitentiaries".

That paved the way for the secular notions of "rehabilitation".

Scandanavian countries seem to be able to have pure and real rehabilitation.

======

But if you're gonna have the death penality its not obvious what the most humane method is.

Though its thought of as an archaic and brutal method the guillotine was the first modern form of execution. Invented in Germany but named after the French doctor who advocated its use in the 18th century (when they began think about humane was to do it). Its ...cruel to folks witnessing it...but its was a big improvement over all of the Middle Ages techniques before it.

The used to hire a "headsmen" ...a big dude wielding a big axe...to chop off your head... and he would probably miss the mark five times before cut perfectly on the dotted line of your neck...damaging you severely before the "main event" even happned.

Using a machine to direct the weighted blade right down to the right line on your neck was...a pretty good way to just take of business rapidly and cleanly.

Youd prolly be conscious for a few seconds...after the chop...but it would then be "lights out".

Its still probably better than electrocution or other even more modern methods.


Drawing and quartering was a rather interesting way of punishment.


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03 Feb 2024, 2:59 am

I think the death penalty is just wrong. Even when some might justify it as an eye for an eye, a cold-blooded killing like the death penalty is worse than an impulsive killing in a moment of rage or other emotion.

But I think the whole criminal justice system should be completely rethought. It's based on the assumption that if someone does something wrong they should be punished. Why? That should not be a given. If someone does something wrong they should be held accountable, that's a different thing. After that there can be ways for them to mitigate the offense, like having to make amends or being of service. And then there should be help for the offender (which can take many forms) so they will not want or need to commit crimes again.

Most people who commit crimes are also victims in society. People who are fortunate and comfortable and live well adjusted and peaceful lives don't usually resort to a life of crime, or at least not violent crime. (They might commit white collar crime, but that can be dealt with by applying financial penalties.) People who are struggling with poverty, trauma, drug addiction, etc. are people who need help, even if they have committed crimes, not prison.

There may be a few people who are so dangerous they have to be kept apart from society, but those are very very few. Prisons are inhumane, and the death penalty is worse.



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03 Feb 2024, 3:49 am

Readydaer wrote:
if the average person's family was murdered, they would probably wish death on the murderer as well.


id want them to stay in jail for as long as possible


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03 Feb 2024, 7:10 am

The only reason i am against death penalty is bc of wrong accusations which is always a possibility. But some people are not fit to live in a society and letting those monsters live, with the taxes we pay is also a waste to me.

Maybe it is bc i live in a poor country where crime rate is very high, so thats my opinion. I have heard of horrendous crimes commited against autistic and mentally disabled people a lot and those" people" do not deserve life to me.



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03 Feb 2024, 9:08 am

sr71 wrote:
I thought Nitrogen gas was a painless means of execution which is why I was surprised to read the accounts of this mans death.
It's a form of suffocation.

Nitrogen is 78% of the air we breathe but when that's made 100%, ie. no oxygen, it seems reasonable to expect the same thrashing and gasping for breath as in a drowning.

Suffocating someone to death doesn't seem very quick or humane to me - effectively, it's the state pressing a pillow over someone's face until they die.

Otherwise, I agree with bee33.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".


MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Nitrogen itself would normally be completely painless and fast, the issue is that they had to have other people in the chamber that required a mask.
Nitrogen is not a poisonous gas so the tiniest whiff as might happen inside the execution chamber because of a leakage in the execution mask is unlikely to be harmful, or even noticeable.

But certain nitrogen:oxygen ratios can still be dangerous -
Quote:
Every year people are killed by breathing “air” that contains too little oxygen. Because 78 percent of the air we breathe is nitrogen gas, many people assume that nitrogen is not harmful. However, nitrogen is safe to breathe only when mixed with the appropriate amount of oxygen. These two gases cannot be detected by the sense of smell. A nitrogenenriched environment, which depletes oxygen, can be detected only with special instruments. If the concentration of nitrogen is too high (and oxygen too low), the body becomes oxygen deprived and asphyxiation occurs.
Hazards of Nitrogen Asphyxiation


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03 Feb 2024, 9:43 am

Cornflake wrote:
sr71 wrote:
I thought Nitrogen gas was a painless means of execution which is why I was surprised to read the accounts of this mans death.
It's a form of suffocation.

Nitrogen is 78% of the air we breathe but when that's made 100%, ie. no oxygen, it seems reasonable to expect the same thrashing and gasping for breath as in a drowning.

Suffocating someone to death doesn't seem very quick or humane to me - effectively, it's the state pressing a pillow over someone's face until they die.

Otherwise, I agree with bee33.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".


MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Nitrogen itself would normally be completely painless and fast, the issue is that they had to have other people in the chamber that required a mask.
Nitrogen is not a poisonous gas so the tiniest whiff as might happen inside the execution chamber because of a leakage in the execution mask is unlikely to be harmful, or even noticeable.

But certain nitrogen:oxygen ratios can still be dangerous -
Quote:
Every year people are killed by breathing “air” that contains too little oxygen. Because 78 percent of the air we breathe is nitrogen gas, many people assume that nitrogen is not harmful. However, nitrogen is safe to breathe only when mixed with the appropriate amount of oxygen. These two gases cannot be detected by the sense of smell. A nitrogenenriched environment, which depletes oxygen, can be detected only with special instruments. If the concentration of nitrogen is too high (and oxygen too low), the body becomes oxygen deprived and asphyxiation occurs.
Hazards of Nitrogen Asphyxiation


In my field of work, people can and have been killed by inert gasses. We have to go through mandatory training and carry gas detectors and occasionally personal air cylinders.

The gas detectors clip on your overalls and constantly beep to let you know they're on. They test the atmosphere for four dangers. Carbon monoxide, sulphur dioxide, flammable gasses and low oxygen.

If the oxygen has been displaced by an inert grass like nitrogen or argon, you wouldn't have a clue. No warning signs, no nothing, just an instant lights out after a few puffs. More often than not, multiple people die in inert gas rich environments because they see someone collapse in an area that looks and smells fine, go over and try to help, only to be overcome themselves.

Port Talbot steel works (rip) had a highly trained rescue crew on standby 24 hours a day including their own fire brigade and ambulances. If you didn't bring your gas monitor and cylinder with you at all times in certain parts of the plant, you would get in serious trouble.

As for execution, he didn't feel a thing.



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03 Feb 2024, 3:48 pm

bee33 wrote:
I think the death penalty is just wrong. Even when some might justify it as an eye for an eye, a cold-blooded killing like the death penalty is worse than an impulsive killing in a moment of rage or other emotion.

But I think the whole criminal justice system should be completely rethought. It's based on the assumption that if someone does something wrong they should be punished. Why? That should not be a given. If someone does something wrong they should be held accountable, that's a different thing. After that there can be ways for them to mitigate the offense, like having to make amends or being of service. And then there should be help for the offender (which can take many forms) so they will not want or need to commit crimes again.

Most people who commit crimes are also victims in society. People who are fortunate and comfortable and live well adjusted and peaceful lives don't usually resort to a life of crime, or at least not violent crime. (They might commit white collar crime, but that can be dealt with by applying financial penalties.) People who are struggling with poverty, trauma, drug addiction, etc. are people who need help, even if they have committed crimes, not prison.

There may be a few people who are so dangerous they have to be kept apart from society, but those are very very few. Prisons are inhumane, and the death penalty is worse.



I support the death penalty circumstances depending. If a country is very thin on resources and keeping the most repulsive of prisoners alive doesn't seem like a great use of funds and a public relations disaster when your own civilians are struggling, then I don't have any qualms about executions.

If some unforeseen genocide happened and large numbers of people have to be executed for the safety of others then I don't see the issue.

Rich countries on the other hand don't have a genuine need for execution. They can afford life imprisonment and hunting down cohorts of ISIS members or high ranking Nazis on their own soil isn't a thing.

I find life in prison until death the best alternative to execution. Inhumane, possibly but meh, it's not like it actually matters if they're a mental wreck having to come to terms with being locked in a little room until they die. I actually quite like the horror a whole life prisoner will experience realising they're destined to never be free again. It was their own fault and they have to be removed from society in some form or another.



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03 Feb 2024, 5:08 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
But if you're gonna have the death penality its not obvious what the most humane method is.


I think the death penality should be only used in special cases like when the head of state abuses his/her powers like committing war crimes or trying to overthrow the political system. These crimes are made deliberately and not on impulse. I think it would have a deterrent effect. The death penality is useless on ordinary criminals like serial killers that don't act rationally and don't take a possible punishment into account.


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03 Feb 2024, 6:26 pm

Cornflake wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Nitrogen itself would normally be completely painless and fast, the issue is that they had to have other people in the chamber that required a mask.
Nitrogen is not a poisonous gas so the tiniest whiff as might happen inside the execution chamber because of a leakage in the execution mask is unlikely to be harmful, or even noticeable.

But certain nitrogen:oxygen ratios can still be dangerous -
Quote:
Every year people are killed by breathing “air” that contains too little oxygen. Because 78 percent of the air we breathe is nitrogen gas, many people assume that nitrogen is not harmful. However, nitrogen is safe to breathe only when mixed with the appropriate amount of oxygen. These two gases cannot be detected by the sense of smell. A nitrogenenriched environment, which depletes oxygen, can be detected only with special instruments. If the concentration of nitrogen is too high (and oxygen too low), the body becomes oxygen deprived and asphyxiation occurs.
Hazards of Nitrogen Asphyxiation

Yes, it's not until the amount rises high enough to start sucking the oxygen out of the lungs that it's a real problem. I think the issue they were having was that if there is a leak that leads to more of it in the chamber than is safe, that they might not realize it in time. Nitrogen is a major component of the air and does not have any sort of smell to warn of it's excessive presence.