GenZ More Likely Than Boomers To Believe Feminism Harmful

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MaxE
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blitzkrieg
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01 Feb 2024, 6:08 am

I can't say I blame them, considering that a lot of feminism propagated on social media is of the radical sort and is a often a codeword for misandry.



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01 Feb 2024, 6:16 am

Us boomers have seen the opportunities created and lives made better for the women we care about by feminism.


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01 Feb 2024, 6:27 am

Interesting.

Feminism has always been counter-cultural. I don't subscribe to the current waves personally. But I don't believe it to be outright harmful. That said, I'm one of the younger millennials, not Gen Z.


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belijojo
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01 Feb 2024, 7:08 am

Hegel proposed the law of negation of negation.

In this incident, feminists initially played a righteous role in opposing oppression; after a long period of development, it exposed its inherent unequal undertones, triggering a movement against its oppression.

Two different takes on feminism have brought the world into an era of true equality, which is great.


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naturalplastic
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01 Feb 2024, 7:50 am

belijojo wrote:
Hegel proposed the law of negation of negation.

In this incident, feminists initially played a righteous role in opposing oppression; after a long period of development, it exposed its inherent unequal undertones, triggering a movement against its oppression.

Two different takes on feminism have brought the world into an era of true equality, which is great.


Hmmm....

So by bringing Hegel to the party are you suggesting that it is a case of "thesis-antithesis-synthesis"?

Hegel said that every thesis implies its opposite...its antithesis. Folks in history rally to to the antithesis to rebel against the old way of thinking. After years of struggle the thesis and antithesis merge into a new "synthesis".

And then this new synthesis ..spawns its own antithesis. And the cycle starts over again.

So....? The traditional patriarchy spawned feminism. But what society maybe groping towards is a future in which neither pure feminism nor pure partriarchy "wins", but to some in between compromise between traditional patriarchy and feminism?



belijojo
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01 Feb 2024, 8:08 am

naturalplastic wrote:
So....? The traditional patriarchy spawned feminism. But what society maybe groping towards is a future in which neither pure feminism nor pure partriarchy "wins", but to some in between compromise between traditional patriarchy and feminism?

I mostly agree. But I don't like the word "compromise", I prefer to say it will create a new look. Just as science has replaced many kinds of witchcraft, new concepts of equality will replace patriarchy and feminism.


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01 Feb 2024, 8:37 am

Let's face it: the human condition is a fraught experience.

I find that fellow-humans who exhibit significant levels of self-awarness, the courage to honestly explore themselves and the world around them, a value system that prioritizes human flourishing, and the requist intellect to facilitate these areas, populate a rather small territory at the thin edge of any given Bell Curve.

All of us struggle in the darkness to varying extents based on factors beyond our control.

The greater majority more so.

In accordence with the depth of this darkness, people are driven by fear and a desperate pursuit of survival.

This is the cradle of all evil, and in this dystopian landscape--internal as well as external--domination feels safe, and anythjng not like us feels threatening.

Other sexes, other races, other beliefs, other ages.

They are not us, and we fear them.

We fear how they might deprive us of power, freedom, assets, anything that accrues to our own dominance, and thus our own survival.

So we use whatever weapons we have at hand to keep these threats at bay.

Our weapons run along a continuum including shaming, social punishment, legislation, violence, and finally destruction.

Our aggresion escalates in response to our perception of threat.

I don't think this will ever change.

There may be times of relative progress, but the pendulum is always swinging.

Push, and push back.

With regard to sexism, it's not surprising (albeit disappointing) that males who feel socially threatened will embrace violence.

Superior physical power has historically been the primary male asset.

It has defined the hierarchy among males, and the dominance of adult men over others.

In a modern world where power is linked to education, politics, money, etc., this innate advantage can feel nerfed.

Breaking the social contract with unabashed hatred, misogyny, and violence can feel like an act of emancipation.

But, of course, it's just more destructive wrestling in the darkness.

In the end, no matter how good it feels to the frustrated, it is unlikely to achieve the respect and--dare I say it?--love, that they crave.

As to feminism, that is an empty vessel of a word, filled with varying and poorly defined concepts.

I wonder what we would find if we had each poll participant write a short essay on what feminism means to them.

I've heard a lot of explanations about the sad plight of men today. They don't ring true to me.

In my opinion, most people's problems are based in ignorance, emotional damage, and toxic socio-economic systems, not sex.

It's just easier to hate girls than to overcome cognitive limitations, work on personal trauma issues, or change systems.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of flawed women.

Take it from me: we are all foolish, and the lion's share of humanity of any sex (or gender) is even worse.

Be the kind of person you want to attract.

Build your own world within whatever craziness is going on in the time you were born into.

I have lived a long time as an unabashedly cis woman.

I have achieved hard things and survived hard things.

I value being a generative force in the world.

I am naturally wired both to fight and to nurture.

I love strong men, and if I had a love language, it would be *protection.*

I would love to treat the man I love like a god damned king.

But, I hate being abused, limited, chained, debased, denied, and silenced.

All too often this is what I have experienced from men who feel threatened, usually because of their own emotional damage.

This is greatly influenced by trauma in my own childhood which leaves me attracted to /attractive to, people who aren't good for me.

This is in no way my fault, but to the extent that I am able, it falls to me to heal those toxic filters--for my own good--if I want to achieve my relationship goals.

It's not enough to see the problem with the other person.

This is a complex topic for another essay, but is also a huge factor in the problems of human interaction.

I've burnt a lot of years, and I am not normative in a variety of cohorts which makes the statistical liklihood of me finding the relationship I want, rather slim.

But, trapped as I am within all the factors that I cannot choose, what can I do but try?

I have to be who I am, and use whatever resources are at my command to build, and rebuild, in search of what I want.

I can't give anyone else a map. We all live within ineluctable constraints including intellect, emotional health, experience, and access to resources.

And, indeed, we can't even chose what we really want.

Don't be swayed or daunted by polls or the "wisdom of the day."

I have lived long enough to see "experts" say a lot of utter nonsense that is then rejected by the next batch of "experts."

To the extend you are able, strive to understand yourself.

Find a vision of what a good life means to you, without regard for the instant political trends.

Develop yourself in the direction of that vision.

As you do that, remember that you have to sift a lot of dirt to find gold.

The more non-average you are, the thinner your wedge of that Bell Curve.

That doesn't imply bad or good.

Just that finding those "nuggets" of deep friendship, mutual understanding, or romance takes proportionally more sifting.

Like a good gold-miner, get yourself to places that are more likely to yield ore.

Keep working on being the kind of person you want to attract.

Take heart. Have courage. Believe.

Your expectations have a profound effect on your outcomes.

Social attitudes swing back and forth, the world will always be crazy.

Forget the polls and the fads of the day.

Understand yourself. Have compassion for and faith in who you are, and strive for what you want.

If you want good-hearted people to flourish, I'm on your side.


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Last edited by Charlemania on 01 Feb 2024, 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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01 Feb 2024, 9:33 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Hey Mods!

Can you maybe merge these two redundant threads?
Unlike Beetlejuice we don't appear when named. :lol:
Fortunately the duplication was reported via... the Report button.

MaxE wrote:
There are 2 threads as I didn't know where this belongs.
It quotes a news article, and it's newsworthy - so News and Current Events is a safe bet.


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TwilightPrincess
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01 Feb 2024, 9:37 am

The article for those who don’t want to follow the link:

Quote:
Boys and men from generation Z are more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good, according to research that shows a “real risk of fractious division among this coming generation”.

One in four UK males aged 16 to 29 believe it is harder to be a man than a woman and a fifth of those who have heard of him now look favourably on the social media influencer Andrew Tate, the polling of over 3,600 people found.

Tate, the British-American former kickboxer who has 8.7 million followers on the social media platform X, is facing charges in Romania, which he denies, of human trafficking, rape and forming a criminal gang to sexually exploit women. He has talked about hitting and choking women and has said he is “absolutely a misogynist”.

The bestselling author and Canadian academic, Jordan Peterson, is also seen favourably by 32% of 16 to 29-year-old men, compared with 12% among women of the same generation. Peterson speaks up for “demoralised young men” and says Tate offers “forthright aggression” as an alternative to “cringing defeat”.

On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.

The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership. The research also found that 37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.

“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”

Larger proportions of young men still think it’s harder to be a woman today than a man, that feminism has done more good than harm and have an unfavourable view of Tate.

But Duffy said: “There is a consistent minority of between one-fifth and one-third who hold the opposite view. This points to a real risk of fractious division among this coming generation.”

Prof Rosie Campbell, director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership at King’s, said: “The fact that this group is the first to derive most of their information from social media is likely to be at least part of the explanation.

“There has been a zeitgeist where young women feel they can own the idea of feminist identity … [Young men] hear a lot about girl power but don’t, at this stage in their lives, understand the inequalities that we know are in the world when you hit work and childcare.” In the meantime, social media algorithms are filling the vacuum, she said. “This could be something that changes when young men enter the workforce but we can’t take that for granted given how important social media is in the way we understand ourselves.”

Ethnic minority men are most likely to follow Tate, with more than a third agreeing he “raises important points about real threats to male identity and gender roles” compared with 12% among white men. Sample sizes are too small to determine which ethnic minority groups might be driving this, the researchers stressed.

Tate, who is mixed race, has said he converted to Islam after previously saying he was an atheist. He has been tweeting in Jamaican patois and declared that melanin, the skin pigment, “gives wisdom and insight, along with bravery and physical power”.

Tate preaches that young men should take control of their own lives, shouting at them in one recent video over footage of him vaping, firing a gun and driving a sports car: “You’re not supposed to be happy. You’re supposed to be monumentally influential and capable.”

Colin Brent, a youth worker in Ealing, said some of Tate’s appeal to black and minority ethnic young people appeared to be that he offered a more direct route to change in their lives.

“Young men from disadvantaged communities hear a lot of talk around policies to tackle inequality and racial discrimination,” Brent said. “These things are abstract. People don’t feel the difference in their lives immediately and it is hard to see the difference being made.

“So, Black Lives Matter was important and touched on deep structural inequalities, but a lot of young men ask what difference does that make to me today. Andrew Tate talks about immediacy and that’s what people find attractive. He says this is how you should be a man. This is how you should get rich. He offers an alternative to the slow process of political change.”


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01 Feb 2024, 9:40 am

There’s a gender divide in Gen Z opinions according to research from the poll:

Quote:
Young men are notably less positive than young women about the impact of feminism

Overall, just over four in 10 (43%) think feminism has done more good to society than harm, while only 12% think it has done more harm than good.

Among those aged 16 to 29, 46% of women think feminism has done more good to society than harm – 10 percentage points higher than the share of young men who feel this way (36%).

And within this age group, one in six (16%) men say feminism has done more harm than good, compared with one in 11 (9%) women.


https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/masculinity- ... -attitudes

Concerning stuff from the same poll regarding views of Andrew Tate:
Quote:
Only a small proportion of those who have heard of Andrew Tate say they have a favourable opinion of him – though one in five young men have a positive view

6% of people who have heard of Andrew Tate say they have a favourable view of him, while 76% have an unfavourable view and 15% say their view is neither favourable nor unfavourable.

And while all age groups are more negative than positive about Tate, young men stand out as being the most likely to approve of him and statements he has made:

- One in five (21%) men aged 16 to 29 who have heard of Andrew Tate say they have a favourable view of him – three times the share of women in this age group (7%) and men aged 30 to 59 (7%) who say the same, and far greater than the proportion of men aged 60+ (2%). Yet most (61%) young men still feel unfavourable towards Tate.

- Among those who say they have heard about Tate’s statements on men and women, one in seven (14%) agree he raises important points about real threats to male identity and gender roles (61% disagree), increasing to three in 10 (30%) young men aged 16 to 29 – far higher than any other age/gender group. People from ethnic minority backgrounds (35%) are also more likely to agree with this view, reflecting a broader pattern of approval of Tate among this group compared to those from a white ethnic background (though it remains the case that more people from ethnic minority backgrounds are more critical of his views than supportive).

- Majorities of those who say they’ve heard of Tate’s statements find his views on men and women offensive (73%), but one in five (20%) men aged 16 to 29 who are aware of them do not – double the proportion of men aged 30 to 59 (9%) who say the same.


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magz
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01 Feb 2024, 12:27 pm

^ That relates to this recent article:
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-g ... 024-1?IR=T

Gen-Z-ers have greater gender gap in political opinions than any generation researched before them.
According to this article, young men and women in America today seem to experience completely different realities, both hostile towards them, but not relating to each other at all.


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01 Feb 2024, 12:53 pm

Wow, that article is fascinating. There needs to be more understanding and support for the challenges both men and women face. It’s especially disturbing to me that only half of Gen Z men support the #MeToo movement. It’s done a lot of good for a lot of people.

People often have trouble empathizing with problems they haven’t experienced though.


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magz
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01 Feb 2024, 1:37 pm

I think many decent men can't even imagine what it's all about - while the undecent ones have other reasons not to support the movement.

Being non-vulnerable and in a different culture, I didn't understand metoo. There's a lot I've learned here on WP and I would love to tell all the women here that life does not need to be like that.


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01 Feb 2024, 1:48 pm

I think we know that it doesn’t need to be like that, but it doesn’t change the reality of past nonconsensual experiences. I don’t think all men are abusers or anything remotely close to that. However, I’m a bit more cautious when it comes to who I trust these days.


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01 Feb 2024, 5:39 pm

magz wrote:
^ That relates to this recent article:
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-g ... 024-1?IR=T

Gen-Z-ers have greater gender gap in political opinions than any generation researched before them.
According to this article, young men and women in America today seem to experience completely different realities, both hostile towards them, but not relating to each other at all.

Could you please paste some of that into a comment? Very airtight paywall. If not against your scruples!


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