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babybird
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14 Feb 2024, 11:47 am

I'm talking about Jesus here

What really happened?

I'm thinking it was fake news me

It has to be when you think about it.


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blitzkrieg
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14 Feb 2024, 12:19 pm

By today's standards, a lot of people find it difficult to believe that a resurrection happened.

There could be numerous explanations for why a body wasn't found where it was meant to be, after it had been put in its tomb. Including theft of the body, rather than Jesus apparently physically disappearing and then being resurrected.

I suppose everyone has a different take on Jesus.



babybird
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14 Feb 2024, 12:20 pm

I thought was stolen


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blitzkrieg
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14 Feb 2024, 12:21 pm

babybird wrote:
I thought was stolen


That is what skeptics or non-Christians might believe, but is not what Christians believe.



TwilightPrincess
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14 Feb 2024, 12:25 pm

It was stolen or the story is a complete fabrication. It’s impossible to say given the lack of evidence.

The gospels were written decades after Jesus’s death assuming he existed. I think a Jesus probably existed but was much different from the character that is in the tall tales that are the gospels.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 14 Feb 2024, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bestiola
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14 Feb 2024, 12:28 pm

babybird wrote:
I'm talking about Jesus here

What really happened?

I'm thinking it was fake news me

It has to be when you think about it.


it's mostly a copycat story from other mystery religions, such as the cult of Mithra, Horus, Dionysus...with Mithraism being especially influential: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ristianity

religious syncretism was pretty common in antiquity.



babybird
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14 Feb 2024, 3:28 pm

I've never even thought of it before today. It just doesn't come up in my life but I was talking about Easter eggs and then I got on to why is Easter on a different date each year and then I just somehow ended up on Jesus and the rest is history

It's strange how conversations go

All I'm really bothered about is Easter eggs


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ToughDiamond
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15 Feb 2024, 3:28 am

To me, resurrection seems such an extraordinary claim that, given the lack of any strong supportive evidence, I'm forced to think that it's highly unlikely indeed that it happened. It seems much more plausible that some of Jesus' followers made it up later.

People were often very superstitious in those days, and it would have been a good way to keep Christianity going. Without it, all they'd have had was their supposed son of God getting caught and killed, game over. By the time the resurrection story was in the scriptures, it would have been too late to investigate and disprove it. In canonical writing, no more than four men claimed to have eye-witnessed it, and none of them saw the actual resurrection. John said it was a complete surprise to the disciples. The other gospel writers said Jesus predicted it many times. Somebody can't have been telling the truth, unless the disciples were remarkably unattentive to their master's words.

Not so long ago you'd likely have been severely punished for blasphemy if you publicly doubted it. Even to this day, nearly all branches of the Church insist that believing in the resurrection is essential, and you're not allowed to express unashamed doubt about it unless you're leaving. It's that important to them. Why is believing an extraordinary claim without hard evidence deemed to be so essential before a person can be considered righteous and worthy?

But for all that, I can't prove it didn't happen. I also can't prove that fairies don't exist, but according to one source, every time a child says they don't believe in fairies, a fairy dies.



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15 Feb 2024, 4:06 am

You either believe it happened or you don't.

The former makes you a Christian, and the latter makes you an Apostate.

Or something like that, anyway . . .


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Sweetleaf
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15 Feb 2024, 4:18 am

babybird wrote:
I'm talking about Jesus here

What really happened?

I'm thinking it was fake news me

It has to be when you think about it.


Jesus cultists dug his body out and did some theater tricks to make the corpse look....risen from the dead. Because cult things. perhaps, I mean I don't know for sure but seems possible.


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Bestiola
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15 Feb 2024, 4:42 am

babybird wrote:
I've never even thought of it before today. It just doesn't come up in my life but I was talking about Easter eggs and then I got on to why is Easter on a different date each year and then I just somehow ended up on Jesus and the rest is history

It's strange how conversations go

All I'm really bothered about is Easter eggs


well it seems it has something to do with early Christians yet again copying other cultures, such as the ones from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Crete. first adopted by the early Christians from Mesopotamia, then it spread to the orthodox church and was later accepted by Catholics and protestants as well.



TwilightPrincess
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15 Feb 2024, 8:13 am

Fnord wrote:
You either believe it happened or you don't.

The former makes you a Christian, and the latter makes you an Apostate.

Or something like that, anyway . . .

An apostate is someone who renounces a religious faith. Some people weren’t raised with a belief in Jesus, so they wouldn’t be apostates. Being an apostate is something I’m proud of but not everyone likes the label or would define themselves that way. Even for myself, it’s kind of tricky. Jesus never seemed real to me even when I was a kid.


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TwilightPrincess
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15 Feb 2024, 8:22 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
But for all that, I can't prove it didn't happen. I also can't prove that fairies don't exist, but according to one source, every time a child says they don't believe in fairies, a fairy dies.
It’s always interesting to me how people have different standards when it comes to religious faith than they do for other beliefs lacking evidence. IMO, “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence” holds as true for religion as anything else.


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15 Feb 2024, 8:36 am

Matthew Chapter 28

The Resurrection of Jesus.
1
a After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning,* Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
2
* b And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, approached, rolled back the stone, and sat upon it.
3
c His appearance was like lightning and his clothing was white as snow.
4
The guards were shaken with fear of him and became like dead men.
5
Then the angel said to the women in reply, “Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified.
6
* He is not here, for he has been raised just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.
7
d Then go quickly and tell his disciples, ‘He has been raised from the dead, and he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him.’ Behold, I have told you.”
8
Then they went away quickly from the tomb, fearful yet overjoyed, and ran to announce* this to his disciples.
9
* e And behold, Jesus met them on their way and greeted them. They approached, embraced his feet, and did him homage.
10
Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”

The Report of the Guard.*
11
While they were going, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had happened.
12
They assembled with the elders and took counsel; then they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,
13
telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him while we were asleep.’
14
And if this gets to the ears of the governor, we will satisfy [him] and keep you out of trouble.”
15
The soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has circulated among the Jews to the present [day].

The Commissioning of the Disciples.*
16
f The eleven* disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17
* When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18
* g Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
h Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
i teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

https://bible.usccb.org/bible/matthew/28


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ToughDiamond
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15 Feb 2024, 3:16 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
It’s always interesting to me how people have different standards when it comes to religious faith than they do for other beliefs lacking evidence. IMO, “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence” holds as true for religion as anything else.

In my view, when somebody feels strongly that they absolutely know something that they don't know, they're taking quite a risk, and they don't even know it's a risk. It's just not level-headed to do that, and I don't even know how they manage to do it. Yet faith is so often respected and revered, and those without it are seen as having something wrong with them.

I agree it's entirely reasonable to dismiss a claim that has no supporting evidence, and when it's an extraordinary claim, the evidence needs to be pretty good before it becomes rational to give it credence. I don't think the onus is on the unbelievers to prove there was no resurrection.

It's enough to evaluate the arguments for the resurrection and to explain why it's unconvincing to a rational thinker. Though even that begins to smack of a huge waste of time when apologetics clog up the works with reams of feeble, incoherent argument. Most people don't spend very long analysing and dismissing the flat Earth theory. I guess it's the sense of guilt enshrouding religious disbelief that makes it harder to just shrug it off, yet I see no good reason for anybody to feel guilty about being secular.



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16 Feb 2024, 1:21 pm



When it Comes to 'The Resurrection of Jesus,'
i Do Agree With One Take Here for Sure,

"It Depends on Who You Ask;"

For Instance, Muslims Believe in
Jesus 'The Prophet' Yet They Believe

That An Imposter Was Put in the Place
of Jesus for the Crucifixion and He wasn't

Killed and Just Naturally 'Ascended into Heaven'

Yet they Didn't Specify in the Quran at Least,
If that was Above, Below, or Within;

(Luke 17:21 Clears that Up In
The Christian New Testament)

True, There is Literal Religion
That is Often Steeped in Myth;

And There is Mystical Religion
That Is Often Deeper Steeped in

Myth as Metaphor Rather than a 'Literal Take'

on the Literature of So-Called Holy and Sacred Texts;

And Other Symbols of Course, Like the Statue of 'Ganesh'
The Elephant-Headed God in Hinduism, Where my Jain FRiEnD

Who Graduated at Close to the Top of All Chartered Accountants
in School in India, Once Stood in Line 8 Hours to Give Great Thanks and Praise to

The Elephant
Headed God Ganesh;

True, Lots of Folks Would
Do That For the 'Modern Female
Jesus-Savior' of Generation Z too;

Yes, Taylor Swift, Savior of Young Women's Souls;
More Specifically Put, Their Emotional Imbalances in Life.

It's Worth Noting, Many 65 Year-Old or So Dudes Watching
Fox News Would Do the Same for Their Modern Day 'Jesus-Savior Trump' too;

What do the Two
Have in Common;

T For First Name Taylor,
And T For Last Name Trump;

And True, Taylor Has a Lot More
in Common With Jesus than Trump
And That's For Damned Sure True, Hehe...

For All Practical Intents and Purposes, Not Unlike Bugs
Bunny In His Cartoons, in All The Repeats Resurrecting the
Cartoon Reality of Bugs Bunny; The Story of Jesus Continues

to Be Resurrected

in Churches Around
The World; in the Bibles;

In All Kinds of Other Human Arts;

True, if Ya Wanna be Resurrected

As Long As Possible, Become a Story
That No One Can 'Physically Kill' at Least;

Who is Really Worshipped in all the Myths
And Tid Bits of Wisdom And Fresh Hell; Well,

According to Biblical Scholars, it is All the Ghost Authors;
Scribes Who Made Mistakes and Intentional Changes; and Editors

That Include The Priestly and Political 'Castes' too, All Through Centuries

of Revisions, With Intention and Mistakes too; Story Still Rules, Along With Those

Who Write The Stories;

And The Placebo Effect
Really Works; And Hypnosis
Does too As Science Shows

For Those Who are Capable
of Coming Under the Direction
of the Power of Suggestion; The Resurrection

Of Jesus, Originally and Even in the Sugar Pill

of the Wafer of Bread That Catholics and Others Consume,

Can and Will Literally Be Healing ThiS Way For Folks Who Truly Do

Believe That it Will Help Them Heal; No Different than A Sugar Pill;

It is the Essence

of the Belief

And The Effects

of the Associated
Human Emotions and
Senses in Synergy That

Makes the Difference; Doesn't
Matter What Form the Sugar Pill takes;

A Key in Life is Being Able to Hypnotize
Yourself And Uses the Essence of Belief

To Reach More Human Potential, including Healing;

Ironically, Not Much Different Than What the So-Called
Teachings of Jesus Suggest to Do; Yes, Very Ironically

Literally
Backed-Up
By Science for
For Those Who are
Able to Consume Whatever
Sugar Pill in Life Comes to Use.

On the Other Hand, The Nocebo Effect is
Just As Real too; At Least for Those Who Are
Susceptible to the Power of Suggestion in Negative Ways too;

Both, By the Suggestion of Others And The Self Talk of Negativity
too; and the Associated Emotions Negative That Come With that too;

Yep, i'm into

Realtheism

i Don't Need the

Myths; i Go Straight

to the 'HeART' of the 'Matter' SouL SPiRiT

Real And Practice The Essence Continually
Improving my Human Potentials ThiS WaY;

And Hey, if the Sugar Pill of the Belief in a Resurrection
That Biblical Scholars Give No Concrete Evidence Ever Happened,

Allows Someone Else

to Heal that Way;

More Power

to 'em;

And The Priests
And Pastors and
Others Who Deliver the
Sugar Pills to Help 'em Heal;

However, That Ain't the Sugar Pills

That 'Trump Delivers;' Pure God Damned
Real 'Voodoo' Pills That Folks Sadly Soak

Up in a Real
Hell of a
Nocebo Effect True;

And It Doesn't Matter, Whether
Or Not He Says He'll Shoot Someone
in Broad Daylight on 5th Avenue or Not,

His Prophecy Will Come True; Some Will Follow Him into
the 'Bowels of Hell' As True As Folks in Haiti Will Do Too

Who Believe
in Voodoo Down there
As The Human 'Condition'
At Essence is Similar Everywhere...

Two Thousand Years Ago or Now, True too...

And As Far As Human Archetypes Go, the Hero
Archetype is a Metaphorical Resurrection too; Where,
Someone Becomes Separated From Their Culture And or Religion;
Goes in the Desert As such For Metaphor, Spends 40 Days or Whatever
in the Darkness; And Returns With Fresh Wisdom Coming Out of the Darkness
of the Old Cave of Ignorance; And Spreading Light of New Wisdom to Others Just

to Help Out
in Altruistic
Ways of Giving;

In Truth ThiS Way,
The Giving Becomes
The Receiving; Naked
Enough Whole Complete,

No Longer Starving Now of
Soul Food LoVE iN Peace For Real New..

So In Other Words, The Jesus Story is Also
A Human Archetype of the Hero, Impossible
to Kill NoW As Long AS Humanity Exists at Least...

And In the Old Testament, 'Isaiah 53' is A Classic Example As Well;

Worth Reviewing i Suppose as i'm Sure Folks here Could Relate in some ways

"KJV 53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Yep, Heroes Are Resurrected, All Naturally In Every Generation Real...

As Of Course John 14:12 Clearly Identifies When Jesus Per Story Says Those
Who Come
After Him

Who

'Believe'

Will Do Greater
Works than Him;
As Apparently the
Ghost Author of That Report
Understood Human Archetypes, Witting or Not..:)



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