Page 1 of 2 [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

22 Mar 2024, 11:49 am

https://youtu.be/nDzMnflJ4LY?si=QwnGwp2DWYg9x7TX



If one thinks about these biblical stories from a mythological viewpoint rather than a purely religious one, these stories are all actually really fascinating. :nerdy:


It mentions demons like Lucifer, Leviathan, Beezlebub, Balial, the Antichrist, even Lilith.

I think the one I find most interesting is Belphegor the former archangel who refused to pick a side in the war between God's angels and Lucifer's fallen angels and was punished by being thrown into hell for his neutral stance where he became the Archdemon of Sloth.

Gee, I wonder what that's like? :chin:


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


old_comedywriter
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 667
Location: Somewhere west of where you are

22 Mar 2024, 12:04 pm

The worst demons in Judeo-Christianity :

Fundamentalists.


_________________
It ain't easy being me, but someone's gotta do it.


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

22 Mar 2024, 12:06 pm

old_comedywriter wrote:
The worst demons in Judeo-Christianity :

Fundamentalists.


*coughallofhumanitycough*


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

22 Mar 2024, 12:20 pm

Also even though I like this video, I can tell the people who made it didn't do any real research into Lilith and took everything wiccans say about her on google at face value.

Once again she was NOT a "fertility first feminist goddess rejected and demonized by the patriarchy). She was created to be evil right from the very beginning, a descendent of the Evil Babylonian Goddess known as Lamashtu combined with the seductive wind spirits known as the Lilitu.

There is absolutely nothing "fertile" or "feminist" about a goddess who was created for the sole purpose of blaming for the (at the time) common deaths of birthing mothers and infants. She hates human women as much as she does human men, doesn't even love her own demonic offspring whom she callously allows to die, and destroys life and creation.


My 2 cents on teh Lilith. :nerdy:


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

22 Mar 2024, 12:47 pm

Another interesting thing about Lilith, she is sometimes compared to the Greek Monster Lamia who, like Lilith and Lamashtu, was a devourer of children and a temptress of men who was cursed by a powerful god (in this case The Goddess Hera who was very angry at this Queen of Lebanon for having an affair with her husband Zeus).

https://youtu.be/RS3OXX8VjvE?si=O85WXgWtJtnQQjPZ



But she also in many ways reminds me of the Greek Goddess Eris, the Goddess of Discord and Chaos who, like Lamashtu, enjoyed causing evil purely for evil's sake. Also like Lamashtu, she had no temple of worship because both the gods and mortals feared and hated her.

https://youtu.be/iPZbv2kbzco?si=fmhcEpkAPm7TPTGy


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


Harmonie
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2024
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 134

22 Mar 2024, 5:01 pm

New characters to look into and admire! Lol, no J/K. But you know... In Judeo-Christian mythology, the prime deity is, no matter how I think of it, evil. Sure you have Jesus that comes to Earth and says some genuinely good things (but also says some bizarre things and really fails to overturn the evils of the OT or the evils that the NT still supports like slavery, misogyny, homophobia, etc.), but to me that's all just a bunch of confusion. Jesus is... God? But also Jesus is the son of God??? Confusing mess. Not trying to start that argument here, though. Disregard. lol.

Anyway, point is God is evil so that can put a shade of grey over the "villains" of the Bible. I say "can", not "does". But I'm just saying, when God's values are so evil and wrong, the villains sometimes show good values and that's messed up. And even when they are messed up you get sick of the throwing around of their names, like how as a woman in conservative Christian communities, you might get derisively labeled a "Jezebel" or it be said that you have a "Jezebel spirit" in you. Considering the nasty character of so many conservative Christians, it makes you think more about Jezebel, you know?


_________________
Diagnosed with ADHD, Strongly Suspecting I'm also Autistic


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

22 Mar 2024, 5:22 pm

Harmonie wrote:
New characters to look into and admire! Lol, no J/K. But you know... In Judeo-Christian mythology, the prime deity is, no matter how I think of it, evil. Sure you have Jesus that comes to Earth and says some genuinely good things (but also says some bizarre things and really fails to overturn the evils of the OT or the evils that the NT still supports like slavery, misogyny, homophobia, etc.), but to me that's all just a bunch of confusion. Jesus is... God? But also Jesus is the son of God??? Confusing mess. Not trying to start that argument here, though. Disregard. lol.

Anyway, point is God is evil so that can put a shade of grey over the "villains" of the Bible. I say "can", not "does". But I'm just saying, when God's values are so evil and wrong, the villains sometimes show good values and that's messed up. And even when they are messed up you get sick of the throwing around of their names, like how as a woman in conservative Christian communities, you might get derisively labeled a "Jezebel" or it be said that you have a "Jezebel spirit" in you. Considering the nasty character of so many conservative Christians, it makes you think more about Jezebel, you know?


I realize that bashing and trying to shame Christians over their religious beliefs has become latest "hip" thing among young people on the internet...

But I like to think I'm not that small minded anymore. Every god and goddess is capable of doing great harm and great kindness according to their myths. Besides I firmly believe that the only true "evil" in this world comes directly from humanity itself, not "God", the gods, or even demons.

"God" didn't invent nuclear bombs, or chemical weapons, or cut down our rainforests like grass, or release pollution into the air and sea that's killing our whole planet slowly.


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

23 Mar 2024, 8:27 pm

Anyways if we're done with bashing Jews and Christians for having a so-called "bad religion", how about we talk about these demons mentioned in the video itself?

I find weird parallels between Mammon the Archdemon of Greed and the Roman God Pluto (aka the Greek God Hades). The Roman version of Hades was not only the King of the Underworld, but he ruled over all the wealth that the earth could provide to humans. Everything from precious metals to gemstones, possibly even cash crops and oil too?

In fact "Pluto" is where we get the term "Plutocracy" (a government ruled by the super wealthy).

Speaking of governments ruled by the rich and powerful, there's a kind of running joke about how the United States claims to be a "Christian" nation yet I'd say that our true "God" is really none other than Mammon.

Image


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


AnanstrixG
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 5 Mar 2024
Age: 56
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 232
Location: Alabama USA

25 Mar 2024, 8:54 am

Hades was lord over "hidden wealth" as well. It was the Pluto transition which brought it .. ahem ... more into the light. I suppose it was because the Romans did more mining than the Greeks.

Right now I think Beelzebub is the most active on Earth. If you don't believe me, turn on any news of any ideology.

“I said to him, ‘What are your activities?’ He replied, ‘I bring destruction by means of tyrants; I cause the demons to be worshiped alongside men; and I arouse desire in holy men and select priests. I bring about jealousies and murders in a country, and I instigate wars.” – TSol 6:1-4


_________________
an owl caught in a spider's web


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

25 Mar 2024, 10:54 am

AnanstrixG wrote:
Hades was lord over "hidden wealth" as well. It was the Pluto transition which brought it .. ahem ... more into the light. I suppose it was because the Romans did more mining than the Greeks.

Right now I think Beelzebub is the most active on Earth. If you don't believe me, turn on any news of any ideology.

“I said to him, ‘What are your activities?’ He replied, ‘I bring destruction by means of tyrants; I cause the demons to be worshiped alongside men; and I arouse desire in holy men and select priests. I bring about jealousies and murders in a country, and I instigate wars.” – TSol 6:1-4


Both points are very interesting. :)

Yes Beezlebub definetly seems like one of the most frightening demons. "Lord of the Flies" is also an interesting title as the ruler of insects. I remember back when the theory that after humans bring about their own self-destruction that we would all be replaced by insects who inherit the earth the way humans did after the dinosaurs went extinct was still a popular idea for science fiction etc.

Also I find it fascinating in regards of the antichrist that some like Nostradamous believed there would be not "one" antichrist but actually several. This title has been attributed to Hitler as well as Napoleon and Nero and even the Pope.

Personally I think these same characteristics could also be applied to world leaders like Mao, Stalin, and yes Trump too.

I mean what else can you say about a disgustingly criminal man who has convinced over half the country and most American Christians that he was "Chosen by God" while threatening to let Russia start World War 3?

It's like he truly has a "gift from the Devil". He may not be THE antichrist but he is certain AN Antichrist.


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


AnanstrixG
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 5 Mar 2024
Age: 56
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 232
Location: Alabama USA

25 Mar 2024, 10:59 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Yes Beezlebub definetly seems like one of the most frightening demons. "Lord of the Flies" is also an interesting title as the ruler of insects. I remember back when the theory that after humans bring about their own self-destruction that we would all be replaced by insects who inherit the earth the way humans did after the dinosaurs went extinct was still a popular idea for science fiction etc.

Also I find it fascinating in regards of the antichrist that some like Nostradamous believed there would be not "one" antichrist but actually several. This title has been attributed to Hitler as well as Napoleon and Nero and even the Pope.

Personally I think these same characteristics could also be applied to world leaders like Mao, Stalin, and yes Trump too.

I mean what else can you say about a disgustingly criminal man who has convinced over half the country and most American Christians that he was "Chosen by God" while threatening to let Russia start World War 3?

It's like he truly has a "gift from the Devil". He may not be THE antichrist but he is certain AN Antichrist.


I can easily rationalize not only more than one Antichrist, but also why more than one would be needed. Your current examples are exactly why I can see the Lord of Flies being symbolically behind it.

I do see the Flies reference as apropos. They are not just insects, but scavenger insects whose larvae are the sign of rapid decay.


_________________
an owl caught in a spider's web


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

25 Mar 2024, 11:20 am

AnanstrixG wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

I can easily rationalize not only more than one Antichrist, but also why more than one would be needed. Your current examples are exactly why I can see the Lord of Flies being symbolically behind it.

I do see the Flies reference as apropos. They are not just insects, but scavenger insects whose larvae are the sign of rapid decay.


That's all very true. Definetly symbolic of rot and decay, as well as the process of death itself.

In a weird way Beezlebub reminds me of a fictional dark goddess in the Elder Scrolls video games called Namira.

Namira is referred to as "Goddess of the Ancient Datkness" as well as the "Lady of Rot and Decay".

She holds domain over the more unpleasant creatures of nature such as insects, spiders, bats, snakes, rats, slimy toadstools, dark caves, ancient ruins, etc. Basically the kind of creatures who mortals are instively afraid of. She also rules over disease and even cannibalism.

This video explains a bit of the lore surrounding her, and since many of the gods and goddesses in The Elder Scrolls are inspired by real-life deities I wonder if she had a bit of Beezlebub thrown in her? :chin:


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

25 Mar 2024, 1:11 pm

Also in the case of Lilith becoming a "feminist icon", I personally feel that this was a mistake. Lilith to me doesn't represent the needs of women, if that were true she would not be trying to murder pregnant mothers and their children.

Lilith is many things: Independent, Strong, Selfish, Rebellious, but Feminist is not her true trait.


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...


MushroomPrincess
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2017
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 335
Location: Turtle Island

26 Mar 2024, 8:51 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Also even though I like this video, I can tell the people who made it didn't do any real research into Lilith and took everything wiccans say about her on google at face value.

Wiccans? I think you mean Jews. Most literary references to Lilith come to us from Jewish sources, mostly in the Talmud, but also the dubiously canon Alphabet of Ben-Sirach, etc. And they all tend to portray Lilith as a mighty and lonely spirit, a dominator of men, blissful release to the doomed unborn, the first spurned wife of Adam and the wife of Samael, a mother of demons and a patroness of abortions.

Sure, maybe the Babylonian tradition is "older." But I place much greater stock in living Jewish traditions, than in some white European professor's interpretation of ten thousand year old Babylonian chicken scratches that he might be reading upside down for all we know.

That being said...... I don't think anyone should be worshiping her as a full-on goddess, and Lilith-as-goddess is a very silly new-age phenomenon. But much like Medusa was to the Athenians, the mighty visage of Lilith today is a shield of terror against every rapist and patriarch. Yes, I do think more forward-thinking feminist types ought to remember her name.



Barchan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 846

26 Mar 2024, 2:34 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Also even though I like this video, I can tell the people who made it didn't do any real research into Lilith and took everything wiccans say about her on google at face value.

Wiccans? I think you mean Jews. Most literary references to Lilith come to us from Jewish sources, mostly in the Talmud, but also the dubiously canon Alphabet of Ben-Sirach, etc. And they all tend to portray Lilith as a mighty and lonely spirit, a dominator of men, blissful release to the doomed unborn, the first spurned wife of Adam and the wife of Samael, a mother of demons and a patroness of abortions.

Sure, maybe the Babylonian tradition is "older." But I place much greater stock in living Jewish traditions, than in some white European professor's interpretation of ten thousand year old Babylonian chicken scratches that he might be reading upside down for all we know.

That being said...... I don't think anyone should be worshiping her as a full-on goddess, and Lilith-as-goddess is a very silly new-age phenomenon. But much like Medusa was to the Athenians, the mighty visage of Lilith today is a shield of terror against every rapist and patriarch. Yes, I do think more forward-thinking feminist types ought to remember her name.

Sorry MP, but chicken scratches? Careful, those might be my ancestors you're talking about, lol 8)



RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,665

26 Mar 2024, 7:15 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Also even though I like this video, I can tell the people who made it didn't do any real research into Lilith and took everything wiccans say about her on google at face value.

Wiccans? I think you mean Jews. Most literary references to Lilith come to us from Jewish sources, mostly in the Talmud, but also the dubiously canon Alphabet of Ben-Sirach, etc. And they all tend to portray Lilith as a mighty and lonely spirit, a dominator of men, blissful release to the doomed unborn, the first spurned wife of Adam and the wife of Samael, a mother of demons and a patroness of abortions.

Sure, maybe the Babylonian tradition is "older." But I place much greater stock in living Jewish traditions, than in some white European professor's interpretation of ten thousand year old Babylonian chicken scratches that he might be reading upside down for all we know.

That being said...... I don't think anyone should be worshiping her as a full-on goddess, and Lilith-as-goddess is a very silly new-age phenomenon. But much like Medusa was to the Athenians, the mighty visage of Lilith today is a shield of terror against every rapist and patriarch. Yes, I do think more forward-thinking feminist types ought to remember her name.


Ok first of all.

No I meant Wiccans, because it was through Wicca that I found out who Lilith even was. I realize she was a demon in Jewish folklore (and an evil goddess in Ancient Mesopotamia, yeah it counts). But it's mostly through the Wiccan movement that people have tried to whitewash the hell out of her (pun intended).

"Patroness of Abortions" my left f*****g ass cheek. :lol: No, she is merely a predator of children and their birthing mothers. Abortion was designed to improve women's health, but Lilith as an entity ruins women's health and the health of the babies of those who CHOOSE to have children.

Since you brought up Medusa, I find the deification of Medusa to be frankly stupid too. Medusa was not a goddess, she was a monster. But as a monster she was a victim-turned-victimizer because the gods treated her like s**t for something that clearly was not her fault. She should be regarded as a symbol of PTSD and not "empowerment".

Let's also not forget that Lilith is essentially a rapist herself who preys on men sexually when they might not wish to have her "dominate them". So the feminists who claim to be against rape culture are actually using a female rapist and baby murderer as their mascot when they embrace teh Lilith. Irony.

You may be able to fool anyone else with that horses**t but you won't be fooling me anymore. Now be gone before someone drops a house on YOU. :shameonyou:


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...