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cyberdad
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24 Mar 2024, 4:41 am

Prominent TV physicist Brian Cox explains the Fermi Paradox,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox



According to Prof Cox there are 7 reasons why the universe seems empty of aliens

1. Rare earth hypotheses - its rare for an earthlike planet to sustain life before some cataclysm
2. extinguished civilisations - civilisations arise and fall before they are able to set sail across the galaxy
3. technological singularity - they are here but we are unable to detect them (e,g nanocreatures or interdimensional)
4. vast distances - distances are too great for civilisations to meet each other
5. Quarantine hypothesis - technology advanced civilisations prefer to hide themselves
6. The great filter - civilisations like us reach a certain point and kill ourselves due to nuclear or biological weapons or climate damage
7. finally limits of biology - the events leading to evolution of life are so difficult the probability of reaching space tech status is negligible or close to impossible (the latter puts a lot of pressure on Elon Musk not to stuff it up for humanity).

But I think Cox missed one - Aliens are here, interacting secretly but they create a camouflage that masks what our sensors ability to detect them because we are too primitive to join the galactic federation. When we look out at the universe we are looking at a virtual simulation that looks to us as empty space



AnanstrixG
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24 Mar 2024, 8:10 am

Seem like some good points. I would say, your addition at the end looks like a mix of cases (3) and (5) - they are here but we cannot see them (technological boundaries) and they intend us not to see them (quarantine)


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Fenn
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24 Mar 2024, 11:25 am

Some people worship “science”

Others do not.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-revelation/

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Butterfly_Effect

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theorems


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cyberdad
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24 Mar 2024, 5:00 pm

AnanstrixG wrote:
Seem like some good points. I would say, your addition at the end looks like a mix of cases (3) and (5) - they are here but we cannot see them (technological boundaries) and they intend us not to see them (quarantine)


Agreed, the variation there was only that our sensors don't pick up evidence of alien life because of a induced distortion that makes their presence intentionally invisible Vs we don't have the equipment (yet) to detect beings because they are too small or exist in alternate dimension



Fenn
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24 Mar 2024, 6:37 pm

I have been looking for spontaneous generation for twenty years without discovering it. No, I do not judge it impossible. But what allows you to make it the origin of life? You place matter before life and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter? You pass from matter to life because your intelligence of today cannot conceive things otherwise. How do you know that in ten thousand years, one will not consider it more likely that matter has emerged from life? You move from matter to life because your current intelligence, so limited compared to what will be the future intelligence of the naturalist, tells you that things cannot be understood otherwise. If you want to be among the scientific minds, what only counts is that you will have to get rid of a priori reasoning and ideas, and you will have to do necessary deductions not giving more confidence than we should to deductions from wild speculation.
Partially quoted in Louis Pasteur : Free Lance of Science (1950) by René Dubos, p 396

Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory.
As quoted in The Literary Digest (18 October 1902)


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Aspiegaming
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24 Mar 2024, 8:29 pm

I prefer number 8: They were all wiped out by Tah-Um. The reason why he hasn't targeted us yet is because he's still taking his 100,000 year nap after his previous successful extermination. As long as nothing wakes him up early, we'll be fine.

Or number 9: They were devoured by a Brethren Moon. The only way the same thing will happen to us is if we find a Black Marker in the crater where it landed and wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Religion will do the rest from there.


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cyberdad
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24 Mar 2024, 9:06 pm

Fenn wrote:
I have been looking for spontaneous generation for twenty years without discovering it. No, I do not judge it impossible. But what allows you to make it the origin of life? You place matter before life and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter? You pass from matter to life because your intelligence of today cannot conceive things otherwise. How do you know that in ten thousand years, one will not consider it more likely that matter has emerged from life? You move from matter to life because your current intelligence, so limited compared to what will be the future intelligence of the naturalist, tells you that things cannot be understood otherwise. If you want to be among the scientific minds, what only counts is that you will have to get rid of a priori reasoning and ideas, and you will have to do necessary deductions not giving more confidence than we should to deductions from wild speculation.
Partially quoted in Louis Pasteur : Free Lance of Science (1950) by René Dubos, p 396

Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory.
As quoted in The Literary Digest (18 October 1902)


Are you saying the universe is of intelligent design e.g. matter emerging from life?



cyberdad
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24 Mar 2024, 9:08 pm

Aspiegaming wrote:
I prefer number 8: They were all wiped out by Tah-Um. The reason why he hasn't targeted us yet is because he's still taking his 100,000 year nap after his previous successful extermination. As long as nothing wakes him up early, we'll be fine.

Or number 9: They were devoured by a Brethren Moon. The only way the same thing will happen to us is if we find a Black Marker in the crater where it landed and wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Religion will do the rest from there.


There is also number 10 from the Matrix. We are all plugged into a simulation. The latter is actually a real theory.



Fenn
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25 Mar 2024, 12:55 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Fenn wrote:
I have been looking for spontaneous generation for twenty years without discovering it. No, I do not judge it impossible. But what allows you to make it the origin of life? You place matter before life and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter? You pass from matter to life because your intelligence of today cannot conceive things otherwise. How do you know that in ten thousand years, one will not consider it more likely that matter has emerged from life? You move from matter to life because your current intelligence, so limited compared to what will be the future intelligence of the naturalist, tells you that things cannot be understood otherwise. If you want to be among the scientific minds, what only counts is that you will have to get rid of a priori reasoning and ideas, and you will have to do necessary deductions not giving more confidence than we should to deductions from wild speculation.
Partially quoted in Louis Pasteur : Free Lance of Science (1950) by René Dubos, p 396

Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory.
As quoted in The Literary Digest (18 October 1902)


Are you saying the universe is of intelligent design e.g. matter emerging from life?


Actually this is what Louis Pasteur is saying. And it happens to solve your paradox.


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cyberdad
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25 Mar 2024, 3:51 pm

*** Oh yes, he disproved spontaneous generation (life must come from life).

SInce his time science has learned to accept plausibility that a warm puddle of organic matter can become "alive"

An interesting conundrum is a virus. When you seperate the viral coat from DNA you get two components that are not alive, But when you re-insert DNA into the protein coat then by some miracle it becomes a living virus.



cyberdad
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02 Apr 2024, 5:55 am

cyberdad wrote:
Aspiegaming wrote:
I prefer number 8: They were all wiped out by Tah-Um. The reason why he hasn't targeted us yet is because he's still taking his 100,000 year nap after his previous successful extermination. As long as nothing wakes him up early, we'll be fine.

Or number 9: They were devoured by a Brethren Moon. The only way the same thing will happen to us is if we find a Black Marker in the crater where it landed and wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Religion will do the rest from there.


There is also number 10 from the Matrix. We are all plugged into a simulation. The latter is actually a real theory.


And number 11 is from Cixin Liu's "Dark Forest" hypothesis where the universe is a like a dark scary forest full of predators who hide in the dark waiting for dumb life forms to advertise their presence (like us) when they reach a certain level of technology. Then they swoop in and harvest us.



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02 Apr 2024, 11:19 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


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cyberdad
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02 Apr 2024, 10:24 pm

Fenn wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


For Brian Cox?



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03 Apr 2024, 4:40 am

I'm disappointed. I thought Professor Brian Cox would have solved the Fermi Paradox by now.

Maybe Liu Cixin has the right answer with his dark forest theory.


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cyberdad
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03 Apr 2024, 6:46 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Maybe Liu Cixin has the right answer with his dark forest theory.


It's more for good space drama. Seems silly advanced civilisations have no idea we exist.

The reality is if an advanced predatory civilisation exists they probably knew about us long long ago. Its still possible we are being cultivated for some nefarious purpose but if that's the case I doubt we will have much say in our own affairs.



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06 Apr 2024, 1:30 pm

cyberdad wrote:
An interesting conundrum is a virus. When you seperate the viral coat from DNA you get two components that are not alive, But when you re-insert DNA into the protein coat then by some miracle it becomes a living virus.

It seems most biologists don't consider viruses to be living organisms. Viruses lack most of the characteristics required to meet the usual definitions of life, though they have one or two of those characteristics. So it's not really a conundrum or a miracle, just an interesting fact.

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/m ... d-or-alive

I was surprised when I was told that in school, and still don't quite embrace the idea. Similarly I don't quite embrace the idea that spiders aren't insects, though I probably should.