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bee33
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15 Apr 2024, 7:48 pm

^Well, now you're changing your position from what you first called woke ideology to saying that a small subset of people who identify as woke subscribe to the positions that you mentioned. It can't be both.

Yes, there are antisemitic people on the left and right, but the left as a whole strongly opposes antisemitism, so it's false to say that antisemitism is part of a left ideology or a woke ideology.

The items you quote go to great lengths to twist things around to make a particular point that is dubious. It just isn't true that the left or the woke crowd deny the oppression of Jews or ascribe to them a particular privilege. Some individuals do that, but as a whole that is a view that is not accepted on the left.

I mentioned Whoppi Goldberg not to say anything about her but as an example of how strongly the general public reacts to the suggestion that Jews might be not oppressed or are less oppressed than other minorities.



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15 Apr 2024, 11:53 pm

bee33 wrote:
^Well, now you're changing your position from what you first called woke ideology to saying that a small subset of people who identify as woke subscribe to the positions that you mentioned. It can't be both.

Yes, there are antisemitic people on the left and right, but the left as a whole strongly opposes antisemitism, so it's false to say that antisemitism is part of a left ideology or a woke ideology.

The items you quote go to great lengths to twist things around to make a particular point that is dubious. It just isn't true that the left or the woke crowd deny the oppression of Jews or ascribe to them a particular privilege. Some individuals do that, but as a whole that is a view that is not accepted on the left.

I mentioned Whoppi Goldberg not to say anything about her but as an example of how strongly the general public reacts to the suggestion that Jews might be not oppressed or are less oppressed than other minorities.


I did not say "small subset of people who identify as woke" believe that. I said, "a subset of progressives look at America in that way".

And you do not understand what the articles are trying to say. They did not say people who believe in what I have been describing are raging antisemites or deny antisemitism. They are pointing out how those particular sets of beliefs can bleed into antisemitism particularly that Jews have too much unearned power. In calling what the articles are saying as dubious you are minimizing what the writer who is from the collegiate world is saying her students are saying to her. What you are minimizing is what many Jewish students, rabbis, and other Jews from various parts of the political spectrum are saying.


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bee33
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16 Apr 2024, 12:08 am

^I believe those viewpoints are motivated by the false belief that criticism of the state of Israel is tantamount to antisemitism. When any defense of the rights of Palestinians is conflated with antisemitism, then antisemitism can be found everywhere.



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16 Apr 2024, 12:38 am

bee33 wrote:
^I believe those viewpoints are motivated by the false belief that criticism of the state of Israel is tantamount to antisemitism. When any defense of the rights of Palestinians is conflated with antisemitism, then antisemitism can be found everywhere.


I have read a lot of progressive Jews who are very critical of Netanyahu and how Israel is conducting the war who say similar things about "woke ideology". The word "woke" comes up a lot.

What a lot of zionists very controversially are saying is that anti-Zionism is automatically antisemitism. That is not the same as saying any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.

Below is a recent raucous anti-government protest in Israel.

If they believe any criticism of Israel is tantamount to antisemitism they have a strange way of showing it considering all the Israeli flags flying.


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bee33
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16 Apr 2024, 2:05 am

A subset of progressives or leftists and a subset of people who identify as woke are the same thing. Woke is not an ideology nor is it a particular group of people. It merely refers to an awareness of societal injustices and an awareness of the systemic nature of such injustice. Just about any leftist or progressive could be described as or might describe themselves as woke. Some people are intent on mischaracterizing the meaning of that word, but that doesn't make it so.



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16 Apr 2024, 7:25 am

bee33 wrote:
A subset of progressives or leftists and a subset of people who identify as woke are the same thing. Woke is not an ideology nor is it a particular group of people. It merely refers to an awareness of societal injustices and an awareness of the systemic nature of such injustice. Just about any leftist or progressive could be described as or might describe themselves as woke. Some people are intent on mischaracterizing the meaning of that word, but that doesn't make it so.

You are using a definition of "woke" that has been out of date for at least a decade.

All leftism is not wokeism. These days way too many conservatives use "woke" as a pejorative to describe anybody with left-of-center beliefs.

"Wokeism" distinguishes itself from traditional leftism because of its emphasis on group identity instead of class.

"Wokeism" posits that America has been systematically and irredeemably racist from the get-go.

It posits that "white privilege" is so entrenched that whites often do not even realize they are doing or saying racist things every day.

It judges historical figures via the lens of presentism. For example when looking back at George Washington instead of seeing a person who did great and horrible things he is judged primarily as a slave owner and thus must be canceled.

Current people who are members of privileged groups in order to be an ally need to "do the work" of seeing why they do and say racist things without even realizing it. This is a 24/7 project for members of these privileged groups. If you are a member of a privileged group you have no right to opine about matters relating to an oppressed group.

Since this is an autism forum let's look at the issue of NT actors playing autistic characters. It is one thing to say there are not enough autistic actors playing autistic parts and this means autism has been incorrectly represented in a negative way. A "woke" thing to say is that only autistic actors must play autistic characters because NT's are incapable of playing autistic characters because they do not have the "lived experience".

"Nonracism" is worse than open racism because it enables systematic racism. I am using racism but it could apply to ablism, homophobia etc.

There are some people who want to deal with offensive speech by exposing it. There are wokes and many others such as the head of the ADL that want to deal with it by shutting it down.


Bernie Sanders is an example of a non woke leftist.
Bernie Sanders defends Ann Coulter’s right to speak
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Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) defended Ann Coulter’s right to speak without disruption or intimidation and criticized those who seek to prevent controversial speakers from being heard on college campuses. As the the Huffington Post reports:


"“I don’t like this. I don’t like it,” Sanders told The Huffington Post after speaking at a rally . . . “Obviously Ann Coulter’s outrageous ― to my mind, off the wall. But you know, people have a right to give their two cents-worth, give a speech, without fear of violence and intimidation.” . . .
“To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness,” he said. “If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?”
“What are you afraid of ― her ideas? Ask her the hard questions,” he concluded. “Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.”


Spike Lee is another example. Nobody can mistake him as a person who is unaware of racism in America.
Spike Lee Thinks Gone With the Wind and The Birth of a Nation Should Be Screened With Proper “Context”
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Legendary director Spike Lee thinks that problematic films like Gone With the Wind and The Birth of a Nation should still be seen — provided the viewing experience includes “historical social context.”

Lee shared his thoughts in an interview with Moonlight director Barry Jenkins. The conversation about Lee’s career and latest movie Da 5 Bloods quickly veered into a discussion on two of the most famous movies in history — both of which are also notoriously racist. 1939’s Gone With the Wind is America’s highest-grossing film ever, adjusted for inflation, but its depiction of Black people as cheerfully dumb and eternally grateful to white people was bad when it was first released and hasn’t improved since. 1915’s The Birth of a Nation was originally titled The Clansman, and it’s a more mean-spirited example of the same phenomena. For this Civil War epic, D.W. Griffith innovated many of the film techniques used today, while also glorifying the KKK, using white actors in blackface, and portraying Black men as stupid and sexually aggressive. For years, cinephiles and educators have struggled with how to talk about these historically important works.

Lee’s answer is to show the movies as part of a much broader conversation. A tenured professor at NYU Film School, he told Jenkins that, “I show The Birth of a Nation in my class. But I also give it a historical social context. I don’t just talk about the great things, the things that D.W. Griffith innovated.”

To be clear, Lee isn’t advocating some kind of laissez faire approach. In fact, he told several stories of the disservice done to him and other students by teachers who were too hands-off. Of Birth of a Nation, he said, “When they showed that film when I was at NYU, they left out the fact that at the time the Klan was dormant, and this film brought life back to the Klan which directly ended up killing Black folks. That was not taught.”

His experience with Gone With the Wind was even worse.


To be fair none of these men used the word "woke" but the censorial and ideological purity elements of it is what they are opposing.

Above I was describing the belief that outsiders have no right to criticize what members of "oppressed groups" say. When a lot of(not all) Jewish people say what I have been describing is occurring, this happened to me, my friends and I describe it as "wokeism" all they get too often is gaslighting. "It is not happening", "It happens but it is only few people involved", "you are just repeating MAGA talking points" . While this is not always prejudice against Jews it is always tone deafness.

"Woke" is far from a perfect term to describe this specific set of beliefs. I would be open to a better term but instead of that all we get is the phenomenon being downplayed.


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bee33
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16 Apr 2024, 2:45 pm

^What you are describing is a perspective that exists but it is not "wokeism." (And incidentally I agree with that perspective. It's true that because racism is embedded in the structure of society no one is immune to it and it's difficult to avoid perpetuating it.)

The meaning of the word woke has not changed. It originates in black culture and it refers to being awake to oppression and injustice.

The word has been co-opted by the right and used as a blunt instrument to attack any leftist or progressive idea, particularly as it relates to identity, but they have not succeeded in actually changing the meaning of the word. My definition is not outdated. That is the definition and meaning of the word.



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16 Apr 2024, 5:46 pm

bee33 wrote:
^What you are describing is a perspective that exists but it is not "wokeism." (And incidentally I agree with that perspective. It's true that because racism is embedded in the structure of society no one is immune to it and it's difficult to avoid perpetuating it.)

The meaning of the word woke has not changed. It originates in black culture and it refers to being awake to oppression and injustice.

The word has been co-opted by the right and used as a blunt instrument to attack any leftist or progressive idea, particularly as it relates to identity, but they have not succeeded in actually changing the meaning of the word. My definition is not outdated. That is the definition and meaning of the word.

Woke started in black culture meaning exactly what you described. Social Justice Activists started using it to describe the perspective we are discussing. Nefarious actors are weaponizing the term to describe anything they don't like. Non-nefarious actors are using woke to describe this perspective.

Words evolve for better or worse all the time. In my lifetime "queer" has gone from meaning weird to a homophobic slur to a prideful word. "ret*d" has gone from a medical diagnosis to an acceptable slur to an increasingly unacceptable slur.

IMHO woke has become what it has become because people allowed it to happen. You discuss people who describe themselves as woke. I am sure there are such people but I have rarely seen that in the last few years. It seems that unlike yourself in general social justice activists have conceded the word has been hijacked and it is too toxic to touch. This is unlike us. "Autistic" has been used as a slur as long as I have been aware yet we still call ourselves Autistic. Word not hijacked.

Since you briefly mentioned you agree with the perspective my opinion is that it is an overcorrection to whitewashing of both history and current realities.

I used the term "woke" to be highly critical of Jonathan Greenblatt for comparing a Keffiyeh to a Swastika. That got lost because of the terminology I used. All too typical.


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21 Apr 2024, 10:25 am

The ADL’s new ‘report card’ for campus antisemitism gets an F from Hillel and some Jewish students

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Some Jewish students would like to see the Anti-Defamation League after class.

This week the antisemitism watchdog organization unveiled its Campus Antisemitism Report Card, a series of letter grades assigned to 85 colleges and universities based on how well the group believes they are addressing antisemitism. For many elite schools, the results were not good.

Only two schools — Brandeis, which was founded by Jews, and Elon — earned an “A.” Many others fared quite poorly, with Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology among the 13 “F” grades. Another 24 came away with “D”s, from Columbia and Barnard to Northwestern, Rutgers and Ohio State.

“Parents and students and other folks are used to seeing college grades and guides and rankings,” Shira Goodman, the ADL’s senior director of advocacy, told JTA. She compared the report cards to the influential national college rankings by U.S. News and World Report.

“It is recognizable, it’s easily understandable,” Goodman said. “And we needed a way to distinguish between schools that were getting it right, schools that were kind of on the right track but needed more work, and schools that we felt were failing. And a grade can do that.”

But according to some of the Jewish students and professionals working on the campuses, the ADL got it wrong. In the day or so since the ADL released the grades, a number of students and Hillel directors — along with the CEO of Hillel International — have spoken out about the letter grades. One called the grade a “massive oversimplification” of complicated yet vibrant realities for Jewish students.

Rabbi Gil Steinlauf, executive director of Princeton’s Center for Jewish Life, called the ADL’s “F” grade for the university “misleading.” “In truth, over the past two years of my deep engagement with Jewish life on Princeton’s campus, I can say very clearly that Princeton is a great place to be Jewish,” Steinlauf wrote in a statement. He added that Princeton’s leadership, administration and faculty are “deeply supportive of our Jewish students.”

The pushback from Hillel is especially notable, as Hillel and the ADL have publicly partnered on initiatives to assess, report and combat antisemitism on campus. The list of schools that the ADL graded was based on Hillel International’s list of the top 30 public and private campuses by Jewish enrollment, along with other top nationally-ranked colleges.

The criticism comes despite Jewish groups being largely in agreement that campus antisemitism has become a significant problem, particularly since the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war on Oct. 7.

“We do not believe it is constructive or accurate to try to assign grades to schools as a means of assessing the totality of Jewish student experience at those campuses,” Adam Lehman, Hillel International’s president and CEO, told JTA in a statement. “Efforts to do so, however well-intended, produce misleading impressions regarding the actual Jewish student experience at those schools. On the contrary, we think it’s important for prospective students and families to pursue a more holistic understanding of Jewish campus life.”

Hillel and Chabad directors at several individual schools also decried the ratings system to JTA, including at Michigan State University (which scored an F), the University of Wisconsin-Madison, George Washington University and the University of Vermont (which all received Cs).

The Hillel and Chabad of Michigan State University issued a joint statement condemning the failing grade, saying it “misses the holistic picture of Jewish life on our campus.”

Greg Steinberger, director of Wisconsin’s Hillel, told JTA that Jewish life on his campus “is better than the grade offered by ADL, which has a limited view of the campus and the vibrant Jewish experience offered by the university, and by on-campus organizations like UW Hillel.”

Adena Kirstein, executive director of the Hillel at George Washington University, told the Jewish Telegraphic Agency in a statement, “We believe strongly that boiling down any campus climate or nuanced communal environment to a single letter grade is a massive oversimplification of very complex dynamics.”

GWU scored a “C” in the ADL’s assessment — which the organization characterizes as “Corrections Needed” — in part due to headline-grabbing incidents of pro-Palestinian students projecting phrases including “Glory to our martyrs” onto campus buildings. At the same time, the report card noted the school has an “active Jewish life” and an anti-BDS policy, has formed an advisory council to address antisemitism, is participating in a Hillel-led antisemitism education program, and “publicly condemns antisemitic incidents.”

Factors in other schools’ assessments also appeared to be in tension with each other. Dartmouth College, a school the Secretary of Education has celebrated for its approach to communal dialogue around Israel, was rated a C, with the ADL citing a small number of student protests and “calls for divestment.” Other schools were marked down for incidents that administrators have addressed. The University of Vermont, which received a “C”, recently pledged to devote significant resources toward protecting Jewish students as part of the results of a Department of Education investigation.

Vermont’s own Hillel director, who has criticized the school’s administration in the past, says that pledge from university leadership deserves more attention.

“Jewish students receive prompt responses and follow through when they file bias and harassment reports,” Vogel told JTA in a statement. “Every campus in the country has antisemitism; what matters is how the university responds and the strong Jewish organizations that exist to support our communities.”

Responding to the criticisms Friday, ADL staff said they stood by the grading project and the process behind it. The ADL’s Goodman said the group views the grades as a “progress report” that can be changed if the schools take action. Several have already contacted the organization to ask how they can improve their standing, she said.

To determine how to assign the grades, ADL antisemitism researcher Masha Zemtsov said the group took a broad survey of Jewish college students nationwide, and also sent questionnaires to campus Hillel and Chabad representatives that could be filled out anonymously.

Individual students at each campus were not surveyed, though Goodman said the ADL hopes to do that in future years, along with expanding the roster of schools to grade.

The ADL also sent general queries to universities about their own steps to combat antisemitism, and sourced antisemitic incidents from a number of places: media reports; its own center on extremism, reports of incidents by students and faculty, and the Amcha Initiative, a pro-Israel campus advocacy group that compiles its own list of antisemitic incidents.

Campuses were graded, in part, on how well they responded to the ADL’s own requests to universities for how they can address antisemitism sent out at the start of the 2023-24 school year.

Some of the information included on its report cards, surrounding initiatives that are still in progress, was not actually taken into account while determining the schools’ grades; for example, whether a school was engaged in an active federal investigation or litigation, and whether it had pledged but not yet implemented an antisemitism strategy.

Zemtsov added that the ADL weighted three broad categories: incidents, Jewish student life and administrative policies around antisemitism. The weighting system, she said, was based on the responses in its survey of students, who she said gave more or less equal consideration to all three categories. This meant, said Zemtsov, that “there would be a student voice deciding how we basically weighted each of the criteria.”

The ADL also considered anti-Zionist protests, and gave particular weight to violent incidents and threats of violence, as well as incidents led by faculty or staff. Nonviolent student protests were given less weight.

ADL staff stressed to JTA that protests simply against Israeli policies wouldn’t count unless they crossed a line into more overt singling out of Israel. “We did not count just criticisms of the Israeli government, of the way Israel is prosecuting a war,” Zemtsov said, adding that the ADL only counted “really clear anti-Zionism, pro-terrorism, the way our center on extremism designates these things.”

Some Jewish groups said the ADL weighed Israel-related campus activity unfairly. Campuses with anti-Zionist protesters and active pro-Palestinian groups like Students for Justice in Palestine received markdowns in the “Incidents” portion of the ADL’s grading system.

Students active with J Street U, the campus arm of the liberal Israel lobby, said the ADL’s criteria didn’t match their experience.

The ADL gave Tufts an F; the school has recently had contentious student government-led BDS votes that resulted in Jewish students being targeted with antisemitic language. But Solomon said that doesn’t tell the whole story, and compared the ADL’s report cards to “outside groups” with ideological agendas that have fought for a piece of the campus antisemitism narrative since Oct. 7.

“To give us an F is to basically paint with a very wide brush over the actual, nuanced experiences of what it actually means to be a Jewish student on college campus right now,” she said. “It honestly feels dismissing of my Jewish college experience.”


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