All sides should be accountable for crimes in war

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chris1989
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27 May 2024, 5:29 pm

We all know the Nazis and the Japanese were brought to justice for war crimes and crimes against humanity after the second world war but few from the Allied side (Brits, Americans, Soviets and others) faced justice for any wrong-doings except a few court martials. I personally think all sides should be held to account for any crimes committed during a time of war and not just one side. We are probably seeing that now with the International Court wants both Israeli leaders and Hamas leaders to face trial for war crimes and other wrong-doings.



QuantumChemist
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27 May 2024, 7:31 pm

I hate to correct you but not all Japanese war criminals were held accountable after WWII. Those with information on Unit 731 (trigger warning: do not search for it unless you can stomach gore) were let go by the Americans for that information. The same can be said of the Nazis (rocket program information, Warner Von Braun later worked for NASA). Both the Axis and Allies had committed war crimes at one point in time during the war.

Under principle, the idea to have both sides accountable for war crimes has merit. It is nearly impossible to do so. It becomes a grey area at best. The winners almost always gets to control who was accountable for actions in war. Case in point, Japan after WWII wanted everyone who participated in nuclear weapon development in the U.S. to be held accountable for the two atomic bombs used against their country. Exactly how would that had been done? Germany and Japan were also working on developing the same weapons during the war, but had limited resources to get the job done.



MatchboxVagabond
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27 May 2024, 9:14 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
I hate to correct you but not all Japanese war criminals were held accountable after WWII. Those with information on Unit 731 (trigger warning: do not search for it unless you can stomach gore) were let go by the Americans for that information. The same can be said of the Nazis (rocket program information, Warner Von Braun later worked for NASA). Both the Axis and Allies had committed war crimes at one point in time during the war.

Under principle, the idea to have both sides accountable for war crimes has merit. It is nearly impossible to do so. It becomes a grey area at best. The winners almost always gets to control who was accountable for actions in war. Case in point, Japan after WWII wanted everyone who participated in nuclear weapon development in the U.S. to be held accountable for the two atomic bombs used against their country. Exactly how would that had been done? Germany and Japan were also working on developing the same weapons during the war, but had limited resources to get the job done.

Yep, there was a lot of subjectivity. The degree to which the Imperial Japanese were held accountable was somewhat less than the Nazis. And while both the US and the Soviets engaged in ethnic cleansing, there really wasn't much, if any actual punishment for it.

In general, the winners tend to get off completely free, or with minor punishments. But, failing to have a world without wars, a world where all parties involved were equally accountable would be the next best thing.



funeralxempire
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27 May 2024, 11:24 pm

Yes, ideally this would be the case.


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cyberdad
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02 Jul 2024, 7:11 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
In general, the winners tend to get off completely free, or with minor punishments. But, failing to have a world without wars, a world where all parties involved were equally accountable would be the next best thing.


the winners write the history books that children read.



MatchboxVagabond
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02 Jul 2024, 10:01 am

cyberdad wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
In general, the winners tend to get off completely free, or with minor punishments. But, failing to have a world without wars, a world where all parties involved were equally accountable would be the next best thing.


the winners write the history books that children read.

Definitely, which is something that people would keep in mind when reading the books. It does seem to be changing a bit in the US where the losers are starting to write books that are just as inaccurate as the winners though.



cyberdad
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03 Jul 2024, 1:30 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Definitely, which is something that people would keep in mind when reading the books. It does seem to be changing a bit in the US where the losers are starting to write books that are just as inaccurate as the winners though.


In this age of social media, psyops and mass propaganda, its becoming more and more difficult to understand why they lost
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... KBN1322J1/



naturalplastic
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05 Jul 2024, 9:27 am

Well...duhhhhh...

In a perfect world BOTH sides would be held accountable for their war crimes. Not just the loosing side (as is usually the case).

But in a perfect world neither side would perpetrate war crimes in the first place.

Both sides would fight fair and clean of the time.

Except in a perfect world you wouldnt have ANY kind of wars in the first place (even fair and clean ones). :lol:



funeralxempire
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05 Jul 2024, 10:17 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Except in a perfect world you wouldnt have ANY kind of wars in the first place (even fair and clean ones). :lol:


Basically, they'd be so ritualized that they'd just be a sporting event.

Kinda like early football and lacrosse.


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naturalplastic
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06 Jul 2024, 7:48 am

funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Except in a perfect world you wouldnt have ANY kind of wars in the first place (even fair and clean ones). :lol:


Basically, they'd be so ritualized that they'd just be a sporting event.

Kinda like early football and lacrosse.

Well...both sides followed the rules on the Western Front in WWI. They didnt target civilians, didnt mass murder prisoners of war, admittedly they did use poison gas late in the war (but that was only on armies, and it was before that was outlawed by Geneva). And yet no one would confuse the trench warfare of world war one with a fun sporting event. What I describe a "fair and clean war" can still be the depths of gruesome hell.

But yes... ancient peoples came up with forms of ritualized combat...sometimes as sport, and sometimes as actual war, but war conducted in a sports-like way.

The ancient Greeks had the original Olympics, and the eastern woodland Amerinds had "the magic stick" (lacrosse). In both cultures the games probably prevented war by letting off angry steam between tribes...but in both cultures the games were also preparation for war by teaching the skills for war.



funeralxempire
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06 Jul 2024, 2:41 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Except in a perfect world you wouldnt have ANY kind of wars in the first place (even fair and clean ones). :lol:


Basically, they'd be so ritualized that they'd just be a sporting event.

Kinda like early football and lacrosse.

Well...both sides followed the rules on the Western Front in WWI. They didnt target civilians, didnt mass murder prisoners of war, admittedly they did use poison gas late in the war (but that was only on armies, and it was before that was outlawed by Geneva). And yet no one would confuse the trench warfare of world war one with a fun sporting event. What I describe a "fair and clean war" can still be the depths of gruesome hell.


I don't know about both sides following the rules in WWI. The Canadians were notoriously brutal, including to prisoners of war.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/th ... -great-war


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cyberdad
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06 Jul 2024, 8:59 pm

“Merry Christmas, Canadians,” said the opposing Germans, poking their heads above the parapet and waving a box of cigars.

All that "Queensbury rules" crap changed when warring sides started using mustard gas in WWI. But I have to admit, the idea of German troops being so "civil" must have been a distant memory by 1941.



naturalplastic
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07 Jul 2024, 8:07 pm

My standards were not high when I was saying a 'clean' war.

I basically meant a war thats not genocidal.

They say that there were only two big major wars that were not genocidal (ie more soldiers were killed than civilians): the American Civil War, and the western front in the First World War.

In contrast in the current war in Gaza both HAMAS and the IDF have killed staggering numbers of civilians. But I have yet to see proof that either side has actually harmed a single actual fighting man on the other side yet! Hope that both sides are proud of themselves!

And even if you believe Israel's claims of decimating and devastating HAMAS by killing them in thousands...we all know that theyre making a hundred new terrorist recruits for every one terrorist they might have killed because of their brutal bombing campaign of Gaza.



cyberdad
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08 Jul 2024, 1:35 am

naturalplastic wrote:
And even if you believe Israel's claims of decimating and devastating HAMAS by killing them in thousands...we all know that theyre making a hundred new terrorist recruits for every one terrorist they might have killed because of their brutal bombing campaign of Gaza.


the government of Sri Lanka murdered 70,000 tamil civilians for exactly the same reason as the IDF, they were eradicating terrorists. the Burmese government killed more than 10,000 ethnic Rohingya civilians using the same reason. When terrorists hide in civilian areas after killing soldiers, the civilians used as human shields become targets. Alas none of these governments have ever been sanctioned.



funeralxempire
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08 Jul 2024, 2:40 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
And even if you believe Israel's claims of decimating and devastating HAMAS by killing them in thousands...we all know that theyre making a hundred new terrorist recruits for every one terrorist they might have killed because of their brutal bombing campaign of Gaza.


the government of Sri Lanka murdered 70,000 tamil civilians for exactly the same reason as the IDF, they were eradicating terrorists. the Burmese government killed more than 10,000 ethnic Rohingya civilians using the same reason. When terrorists hide in civilian areas after killing soldiers, the civilians used as human shields become targets. Alas none of these governments have ever been sanctioned.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... a_genocide

You're right that Sri Lanka didn't face sanctions for their genocidal actions against the Tamils, but that doesn't mean Israel should get a free pass, it means the international community failed the Tamils.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning. — Warren Buffett


cyberdad
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08 Jul 2024, 5:41 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You're right that Sri Lanka didn't face sanctions for their genocidal actions against the Tamils, but that doesn't mean Israel should get a free pass, it means the international community failed the Tamils.


Israel's attempt to eradicate HAMAS and retrieve hostages has failed. they should be sanctioned and pay for damages. But that doesn't mean they have no right to retaliate. What's done is done. Israel needs to heed calls to stop hurting civilians and start negotiating.