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FranzOren
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06 Jun 2024, 12:00 pm

Is it moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features in jails or prisons instead of forensic correctional facilities?

First of all, jails or prisons don't have excellent training to handle those two personality disorders correctly if it is severe or profound, even if a prison psychiatrist or psychologist is trying to help severely mentally ill prisoners fix their thoughts and conduct.

Another issue is that people with severe or profound Narcissistic Personality Disorder or severe or profound Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features might be legally sane and competent to stand trial. Still, they have this strange nihilistic delusional view of this world. When they commit crimes, many also have a delusion that rules don't apply to them, due to disregard for right and wrong, and also black and withe thinking, with no grounds for the middle ground.

I hope you guys understand where I am coming from with this issue.



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06 Jun 2024, 12:06 pm

Good question.

I think in general that punishing people through jails/prisons is immoral--regardless of an NPD or ASPD diagnosis. I graduated in 2020 with a baccalaureate degree in Criminal Justice and it really opened my eyes to the disgustingly accepted practice of private, for-profit prisons.

I also learned that typically rehabilitation and correction centers are less costly than prison in the long run. These big institutions don't care though, because they are making bank off of incarcerated individuals. ʕ•ﻌ•`ʔ


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FranzOren
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06 Jun 2024, 12:23 pm

MoeTrashPanda wrote:
Good question.

I think in general that punishing people through jails/prisons is immoral--regardless of an NPD or ASPD diagnosis. I graduated in 2020 with a baccalaureate degree in Criminal Justice and it really opened my eyes to the disgustingly accepted practice of private, for-profit prisons.

I also learned that typically rehabilitation and correction centers are less costly than prison in the long run. These big institutions don't care though, because they are making bank off of incarcerated individuals. ʕ•ﻌ•`ʔ


Sadly, that is the reality we live in :cry: :x



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06 Jun 2024, 12:34 pm

First off...you're misusing the word "forensic".

The term "forensic science" has to do with detective work...its the science of investing crime. Nothing to do with applying justice once theyve figured out who did it and have caught them. A "forensic institution" would be an institution (like Scotland Yard) that investigates crime. Not one that either reforms or punishes anyone after they have been convicted.

The disorders you mention are incurable (giving psychopaths therapy just makes them more skilled at psychopathy), and they are not usually thought of in the same category as mitigating circumstances like other mental conditions. Like insanity or retardation. But yes...you could argue that the sociopaths and psychopaths etc are mentally ill, and mentally ill in the legal sense of 'not knowing right from wrong' and ergo shouldnt be punished for it. Thats a heavy question. But they have to be at least "warehoused" away from the public if their disorder leads to crime.



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06 Jun 2024, 12:56 pm

FranzOren wrote:

Sadly, that is the reality we live in :cry: :x


So true :(


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FranzOren
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06 Jun 2024, 4:57 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
First off...you're misusing the word "forensic".

The term "forensic science" has to do with detective work...its the science of investing crime. Nothing to do with applying justice once theyve figured out who did it and have caught them. A "forensic institution" would be an institution (like Scotland Yard) that investigates crime. Not one that either reforms or punishes anyone after they have been convicted.

The disorders you mention are incurable (giving psychopaths therapy just makes them more skilled at psychopathy), and they are not usually thought of in the same category as mitigating circumstances like other mental conditions. Like insanity or retardation. But yes...you could argue that the sociopaths and psychopaths etc are mentally ill, and mentally ill in the legal sense of 'not knowing right from wrong' and ergo shouldnt be punished for it. Thats a heavy question. But they have to be at least "warehoused" away from the public if their disorder leads to crime.


Should we call jails and prisons mental hospitals instead?



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08 Jun 2024, 11:14 am

If they are not medical institutions devoted to curing the inmates then they cant be called "hospitals" of any kind.

Unless you want to radically revamp the whole US penal system to make them into psychiatric institutions.



FranzOren
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08 Jun 2024, 6:12 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
If they are not medical institutions devoted to curing the inmates then they cant be called "hospitals" of any kind.

Unless you want to radically revamp the whole US penal system to make them into psychiatric institutions.


Yes, that is what my plan was, but by making them more humane and not violate prisoners rights.



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08 Jun 2024, 6:18 pm

FranzOren wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
If they are not medical institutions devoted to curing the inmates then they cant be called "hospitals" of any kind.

Unless you want to radically revamp the whole US penal system to make them into psychiatric institutions.


Yes, that is what my plan was, but by making them more humane and not violate prisoners rights.

That's probably not going to work. That being said, IIRC, something like a percent or two of people convicts are responsible for half of the violent offenses, so I have a feeling that there's going to be a bunch of people with conduct disorders in that segment of the prison population that might better be served by putting them on psychiatric hold. That being said, I don't think it's going to happen because a good chunk of them are already in prison for the long term and the political questions related to this are going to be hard to deal with.



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08 Jun 2024, 6:28 pm

FranzOren wrote:
Is it moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features in jails or prisons instead of forensic correctional facilities?
If they have committed jail-able offenses, then the answer is 'Yes'.  APD/NPD should never be considered to be "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards.

And besides, WHAT "forensic correctional facilities"?  Do they exist?  The only "Insane Asylum" I ever knew about was shut down decades ago, and demolished a few years later.


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FranzOren
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08 Jun 2024, 8:48 pm

Two of you made interesting points, thanks 8)



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08 Jun 2024, 10:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
Is it moral to punish and put people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features in jails or prisons instead of forensic correctional facilities?
If they have committed jail-able offenses, then the answer is 'Yes'.  APD/NPD should never be considered to be "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards.

And besides, WHAT "forensic correctional facilities"?  Do they exist?  The only "Insane Asylum" I ever knew about was shut down decades ago, and demolished a few years later.


Most of the larger institution were shut down in the '80s by Reagan. Which would have been fine, but the smaller group homes that were supposed to treat the people that weren't a danger/in danger weren't ever properly funded and it was just another case of St. Ronnie shifting the tax burden from the wealthy onto the poorer folks.

That being said, I'm pretty sure there still are lockdown wards out there for folks that the OP is talking about but in practice, the chances of actually having an accused criminal sent there are pretty low. From what I remember, the defense is tried in less than a percent of cases and it's rarely effective just due to the belief that all criminals have some degree of mental illness and being found not guilty by reason of insanity is getting off the hook for committing the crime. .



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08 Jun 2024, 10:16 pm

Maybe rethink it next time you or a loved one are tortured and/or murdered by someone with NPD or ASPD.

We all need to play by the same rules.


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08 Jun 2024, 10:18 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
From what I remember, the defense is tried in less than a percent of cases and it's rarely effective just due to the belief that all criminals have some degree of mental illness and being found not guilty by reason of insanity is getting off the hook for committing the crime. .


I've never gotten how going to padded cage with more doctors and fewer guards is somehow "getting off the hook" compared to a concrete cage with fewer doctors.

Either way it's a cage, but the former is more likely to be able to hold someone indefinitely as well as be more likely to provide the actual care they need.


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08 Jun 2024, 10:30 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Maybe rethink it next time you or a loved one are tortured and/or murdered by someone with NPD or ASPD.

We all need to play by the same rules.


Ultimately it is making everyone play by the same rules. It's long been recognized that people can have impaired criminal liability and that when they do we put them away in treatment instead of just seeking to punish them, but we still put them away.

It's not unreasonable to debate over where the line is drawn when it comes to criminal responsibility but also, a justice system that's largely fixated on vengeance seems like it's missing the point of having a justice system. The whole point is that we're not blindly driven by emotions and the desire for revenge.

If someone needs put away because they behave violently they still need put away, and if they can't ever be released does it change things if it's indefinitely in a facility for people who are patients rather than criminals? It's not like they're avoiding consequences for their actions, they're just facing the appropriate consequences for someone who can't fairly be held criminally responsible.

It seems like expecting the state to treat people unfairly because life is unfair, as though that excuses the state's obligation.


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08 Jun 2024, 10:32 pm

My abuser is put away in psychiatric.

I understand the difference.

I just didn't like the word "morality" applied to me / non-offenders.

Frankly I don't care where they go so long as they can never reoffend.

It's a very triggery topic at a triggery time.

Sorry, I'll exit.


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Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 08 Jun 2024, 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.