Idaho police shoot and critically wound knife wielding teen

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MatchboxVagabond
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18 Apr 2025, 11:30 am

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That's an explanation but not really an excuse.

More specifics and probably body cam footage will likely come out. The unfortunate reality is that knives are a lot more dangerous than people realize and tasers or pepper spray are less reliable than people think.

I'm not personally familiar enough yet about this case, but the reality of police shootings is usually messier than people think.


I'm familiar with the 21 foot rule, I've read two of the main books that have contributed to police becoming so trigger happy in some places (Dave Grossman's On Killing and On Combat).

That said, police seem to both be overly willing to place themselves in poor situations and then escalate based on the danger they've placed themselves in, rather than because they were forced to escalate.

When you're dealing with an armed suspect who's no longer a threat to civilians, the goal should be deescalation, not just shooting them. Especially when they're dealing with someone with ASD, mental illness, intellectual impairments or extreme distress.

If you have enough space to maintain a distance of more than 20 feet, you have a lot more flexibility when it comes to use of force simply because the op can't close that distance in time to actually use their weapon. If you can get them to drop the weapon, you're no longer dealing with an armed suspect. The goal shouldn't be to kill the suspect, it should be to get them to surrender. I understand deadly force is sometimes required, but it seems like they chose violence before they even understood the entire situation or made any attempt to deescalate.

Clearly the goal shouldn't be to kill the suspect, that's really never an optimal outcome, even if it is sometimes unavoidable. I've seen enough cases over the years being covered where more information led to different conclusions.

It's a shame that tasers and pepper spray aren't as reliable as people tend to think. I do hope that in the coming years that we can start to see some of those Boston Dynamics robots fitted up with non-lethal options for subduing people in situations like this. I'm sure that eventually somebody will be able to work out how to fit one with a net gun or a bolawrap that would neutralize the threat in a way that wasn't likely to hurt anybody.



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18 Apr 2025, 2:02 pm

enz wrote:
zapping him and handcuffing him would of solved the problem

The caller minding his own $#%&@ing business would have solved the problem



MatchboxVagabond
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18 Apr 2025, 3:04 pm

Barchan wrote:
enz wrote:
zapping him and handcuffing him would of solved the problem

The caller minding his own $#%&@ing business would have solved the problem

I don't agree. And what if it had been a more serious threat with somebody intending to murder people?



funeralxempire
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18 Apr 2025, 4:05 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Clearly the goal shouldn't be to kill the suspect, that's really never an optimal outcome, even if it is sometimes unavoidable. I've seen enough cases over the years being covered where more information led to different conclusions.

It's a shame that tasers and pepper spray aren't as reliable as people tend to think. I do hope that in the coming years that we can start to see some of those Boston Dynamics robots fitted up with non-lethal options for subduing people in situations like this. I'm sure that eventually somebody will be able to work out how to fit one with a net gun or a bolawrap that would neutralize the threat in a way that wasn't likely to hurt anybody.


I don't think a situation like this requires more gadgets, just a change of doctrine.


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MatchboxVagabond
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18 Apr 2025, 4:51 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Clearly the goal shouldn't be to kill the suspect, that's really never an optimal outcome, even if it is sometimes unavoidable. I've seen enough cases over the years being covered where more information led to different conclusions.

It's a shame that tasers and pepper spray aren't as reliable as people tend to think. I do hope that in the coming years that we can start to see some of those Boston Dynamics robots fitted up with non-lethal options for subduing people in situations like this. I'm sure that eventually somebody will be able to work out how to fit one with a net gun or a bolawrap that would neutralize the threat in a way that wasn't likely to hurt anybody.


I don't think a situation like this requires more gadgets, just a change of doctrine.

I do, as a practical matter cops are limited in their ability to back down the way that a private citizen would normally be expected to. Changes to doctrine really only go so far, at some point, people who are wielding weapons need to be confronted or contained so they can't get to other people long enough to calm things down. There's really only so much you can do in terms of that in terms of changes to training or doctrine.



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18 Apr 2025, 6:14 pm

enz wrote:

this information:
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The 911 caller said an apparently intoxicated man - the teen - was wielding a kitchen knife and periodically chasing a man and woman in the yard, according to audio of the 911 call released by the Pocatello Police Department.


zapping him and handcuffing him would of solved the problem


A water cannon might have helped.

Perhaps making him run at them on a conveyor belt.

Or maybe in molasses up to his waist.

Taking sleeping pills might have made him slow down.

Best of all might be having a moat full of alligators between them.



enz
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18 Apr 2025, 9:45 pm

why do you think cops have tazers? To not have to shoot people



funeralxempire
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18 Apr 2025, 11:21 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Clearly the goal shouldn't be to kill the suspect, that's really never an optimal outcome, even if it is sometimes unavoidable. I've seen enough cases over the years being covered where more information led to different conclusions.

It's a shame that tasers and pepper spray aren't as reliable as people tend to think. I do hope that in the coming years that we can start to see some of those Boston Dynamics robots fitted up with non-lethal options for subduing people in situations like this. I'm sure that eventually somebody will be able to work out how to fit one with a net gun or a bolawrap that would neutralize the threat in a way that wasn't likely to hurt anybody.


I don't think a situation like this requires more gadgets, just a change of doctrine.

I do, as a practical matter cops are limited in their ability to back down the way that a private citizen would normally be expected to. Changes to doctrine really only go so far, at some point, people who are wielding weapons need to be confronted or contained so they can't get to other people long enough to calm things down. There's really only so much you can do in terms of that in terms of changes to training or doctrine.


Where did I say anything about them backing down. A change to doctrine might reinforce containing and deescalating in order to take the person into custody in situations like this, as opposed to just murking them on-sight.

Yes, it will involve more time, but that's an acceptable cost.


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enz
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18 Apr 2025, 11:38 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Where did I say anything about them backing down. A change to doctrine might reinforce containing and deescalating in order to take the person into custody in situations like this, as opposed to just murking them on-sight.

Yes, it will involve more time, but that's an acceptable cost.


Education wont do anything if someone is a sociopath



MatchboxVagabond
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19 Apr 2025, 1:00 am

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I don't think a situation like this requires more gadgets, just a change of doctrine.

I do, as a practical matter cops are limited in their ability to back down the way that a private citizen would normally be expected to. Changes to doctrine really only go so far, at some point, people who are wielding weapons need to be confronted or contained so they can't get to other people long enough to calm things down. There's really only so much you can do in terms of that in terms of changes to training or doctrine.


Where did I say anything about them backing down. A change to doctrine might reinforce containing and deescalating in order to take the person into custody in situations like this, as opposed to just murking them on-sight.

Yes, it will involve more time, but that's an acceptable cost.

You didn't, but there are just not that many options when things reach the point where shootings are on the table. In an ideal world, there would be fewer guns floating around, better treatment for mental health issues and prisons would be more focused on rehabilitation than on being hellholes. We do not live in that world, at least not in the US.

If the police can't back down, then you're in the same basic situation, no matter what you do in terms of de-escalation, it can still fail and there isn't always the time to do so before making a decision. It certainly sucks, but around here they were doing that sort of nonsense and it's just led to crime spiraling out of control in parts of the city.



funeralxempire
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19 Apr 2025, 3:37 pm

enz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Where did I say anything about them backing down. A change to doctrine might reinforce containing and deescalating in order to take the person into custody in situations like this, as opposed to just murking them on-sight.

Yes, it will involve more time, but that's an acceptable cost.


Education wont do anything if someone is a sociopath


Sociopaths probably shouldn't become cops.


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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29 Jun 2025, 6:22 pm

Family of Autistic Teen Shot 9 Times by Police Launch Lawsuit

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The family of 17-year-old Victor Perez, an autistic teenager who was shot nine times by police officers in Idaho earlier this year, is suing the Pocatello Police Department (PPD) over claims that officers violated the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

What People Are Saying
Zoe Gross, director of Advocacy at the Autistic Self Advocacy Network (ASAN), told Newsweek:
"We must increase community oversight of police forces and make it easier to hold police accountable for violence by ending the policy of qualified immunity, which makes it very difficult to sue when police harm someone. People who want to see less police violence can advocate for policy changes like these."

Gross added: "Police often profile or target autistic people, especially Black autistics and other autistic people of color. They may claim that someone with auditory processing issues is 'refusing to follow commands' that they do not understand; that someone who cannot speak is refusing to cooperate; or that someone making repetitive movements is making threatening gestures or is drunk or high. When autistic people do not understand or cannot follow a police officer's instructions, or moves in a way that police perceive as erratic or threatening, police may immediately escalate to using force, including sometimes killing the autistic person."

Attorney John Burris told the press: "[Officers] arrived on the scene just like gangbusters and within moments, not minutes, not hours, no effort to give the young man any opportunity to locate where he was or to self-identify with these officers; They shot and killed him."

Idaho Attorney General Raúl Labrador told the media at the time of the shooting: "As with all such matters, the Office of the Attorney General will conduct a thorough and impartial review once the Eastern Idaho Critical Incident Task Force completes its investigation."

What Happens Next?
The police in this lawsuit may receive additional legal aid due to the Trump administration, as President Donald Trump signed an executive order directing the Justice Department to explore a program that could involve law firms providing pro bono assistance to police officers accused of wrongdoing.


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