Venting about religion

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I just feel like to need to talk about these, just to get them off my chest.

First and most important rule: this is a critique of ideas and arguments, not in any way meant to disparage or insult the individuals who expressed them. To the best of my knowledge, these are kind and decent people who I simply disagree with.

Last week, I was talking to someone as we were browsing some comics together. I showed him one that featured Ares, the god of war, and he felt the need to turn it into a religious talking point. He said that anyone who worships a god of war cannot find peace. It seems obvious that anyone worship a war god is not seeking peace, but what stood out to me was the irony of this statement coming from a Christian. Anyone with even passing familiarity of the Bible should know that the Christian god is war god. Throughout the Old Testament, he frequently demands war and violence from his followers and uses war to discipline them whenever he is not pleased. He also frequently engages in violence all the time, and describes himself as a jealous and wrathful god. When the Pharaoh was prepared to relent, god hardened his heart, causing him to act against his own intent just so god could continue rain his wrath upon the people of Egypt just to show everyone how big his d*** is. And, of course, there was that time he destroyed all life in a global flood.

Earlier today, I overheard someone quote the phrase: "there are no atheists in foxholes." In all fairness, I've never served in the military or been a war; but even if that is true, it is not the win so many people think it is. It only further highlights how it is when people are scared and vulnerable that they turn to religion; not when they are at the height of their emotional and intellectual ability.

Those were just my thoughts.

God in the Old Testament is a God of justice and his decisions of military intervention came after protacted times of trying softer approaches for change which didn't work.

I wanted to say this critically- a lot of the Bible is not litreal talk that God would unleash on everyone. It is more spiritual in style than litreal. So, like say if God's broke and enemy's yoke and neck. This could be an arrow spritual to release someone from bondage and not that God is striking everyone in the neck litreally. I like Psalm 11 which says about God's true stance on violence and that he is anti violent at heart. He destroyed the world once before as it was violent and he promised never to do so again.

May be also read a post I started here titled how religion can be used constructively in conflict resolution.
viewtopic.php?t=427108

When God brought the nation of Israel into the land of Canaan, he told Israel that they had to exterminate the population. $00 years earlier he had told Abraham that those people were guilty of crimes (such as burning their children alive to the god Molech). However, their sins had not yet reach the level for extermination. Israel failed to exterminate the people and adopted their ways and were punished by God for it.

Earlier in the bible God exterminated everyone on earth except for eight people. The human worship of war is more of a youthful glorying of strength. The killing by God is more a judicial consequence.

While the Bible may say that he is a God of justice, I don’t think a just God would advocate for the slaughter of children and infants as YHWH does in various places of the Old Testament. A just God would also not allow innocent people, especially children, to suffer if he were capable of stopping it.

From my personal reading of the Bible from cover to cover, I tend to agree with Richard Dawkins on this topic (but not some other ones):

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Deuteronomy 20:15

This is not spiritual metaphor; it is literal. It is a command. Go to every population center within a designated geographic location and attack them. The aggressors here are the Israelites. They are commanded to take everyone within a city as slaves if they agree to submit to them. Do not try to weasel your way out of that by trying to tell me that this isn't slavery; the text makes it clear that it is forced servitude under pain of death. And if they refuse submersion? Slaughter all the men and take all the women and children as slaves. The only options here are slavery or death, for nothing more than being located on land you decided belongs to you; no different from what was done to indigenous peoples of the Americas and across the world. Colonization didn't happen in spite of Christianity; it is Christianity. And before you try to make out like being offered the chance to continue to live as slaves is somehow justice, let's look at the next verse:

Deuteronomy 20:16-17



There is no weaseling your out of this one: the text is a clear and unmistakable command for the complete genocide of all the nations it names. There is no ambiguity in the words "do not leave alive anything that breathes."

1 Samuel 15:1-3



Again, an unambiguous command of genocide. The text explicitly states that children and infants are to be put to the sword. The text does make it clear that this command is in response to aggression from the Amalekites; but aggression neither justifies not excuses the slaughter of children.

One way apologists attempt to weasel their way out of this one is by claiming that this verse isn't a command, but only a description of events that the Christian God supposedly never approved of. But that is clearly a lie, as the text makes it clear that God himself is commanding King Saul to carry out this genocide. And in the following verses, God rebukes Saul and removes him as king for failing to fully carry it out; so you cannot claim that was not God's intention.

1 Samuel 15:17-21



Here is William Lane Craig, the supposed creme de la creme of Christian Apologists, attempting to explain that the slaughter of children is good when the Christian God commands it. Anyone who attempts to defend this filth is a despicable human being.



There is no justice in this. If any modern leader were to issue such commands, they would rightly be labeled a monstrous war criminal. You don't get to special plead for your god.

Stop trying to gaslight me, because it will not work. But more importantly; stop gaslighting yourself.

Reading the Bible and trying to believe that it’s one inspired message felt like gaslighting. You’ve got scriptures that say that “God is Love” (1 John 4:8) and that “his work is perfect, and all his ways are just” (Deuteronomy 32:4). If he were real, both of those statements would be lies. Being raised with it definitely felt like a mindf**k.

Exactly!

"God is love" but also "all are deserving of death in his eyes". "His work is perfect" but also "he regretted creating man."

I want to ask a question-I think that God is proportionate and is often a God of last resort.
Let's not forget that he fought a 40 years battle which is a serious long time for God to be involved in and he tried many tatics as well, before to got to the point like the Midianites assault. It is a not a pleasant thing and war isn't, but for God it was just in the bigger picture. I want to know how long into the war things people have issue occur as if we are talking like 20-30 years plus then that is a long time to have tried various things with no result.

Whatever timeframe we’re talking about, it’s very little time as far as God is allegedly concerned.

That’s not to say that any length of time could justify such despicable and immoral atrocities if they had actually happened. Genocide and slavery are never proportionate responses.

How long does a war have to go on for before it's okay to murder children?! !

Do you people ever hear the sh!t that comes out of your mouths?!

To make this very clear: no! There is absolutely no set of circumstances under which genocide is excusable. Your god is a monster, and your desperate attempts to defend it are Turing you into monsters.

About the discussion about slavery, you are talking about the Old Testament and as Christians God has given his son and were are led by Galatians 3:28 and there is no longer a slave or free slave, man or woman before God. We are all now equal I do like looking at timelines though, it is history and being logical and looking at what was tried and what was the outcome.

My parents originate from a lower developed country. In that country poverty is great for some. They often can employ a house worker and some people may see this as a mild form of being in bond. They provide their food and housing and they provide their services to them for most of the day.

Haggai in the Bible was a bonds woman to Sarai. She sounded like she would have been in poverty without this at the time she lived. God sent her a message when she was mistreated by Sarai that indicated he cared for her and how she was treated. I myself haven’t read of where God has told someone to be mistreated as a slave or bonds person. The Israelites didn’t always follow God’s message and where at liberty to do as they like. This extended to as well dishonouring people to without his command. The people who would often gives God’s message where often hated and they could do their own thing.
The Israelites where also imprisoned for a substantial time violated against their own will and that is not humane or right as well.

Slaves are often referenced in the New Testament as are stupid gender hierarchies. (God giving his son in this context would be another example of God’s injustice. Sacrificing an innocent being is NOT just.)

I’ve heard fundamentalists apply the scripture quoted above to different situations, including marriage. Good times. At any rate, it’s pretty messed up to not only support slavery but to suggest that it’ll please God if you endure suffering and injustice rather than fight against it.
It’s strange that an all-powerful deity can’t manage his own reputation.

The account involving Hagar is extremely problematic. I cover it here.

This scripture in the Old Testament is grotesque:

From my take, Galatians 3:28 is the spirit of Christ message, that before God the creator we are all equal. Now rationally slavery was no way near abolished in the real world. So although it was still going on, may be they needed to give it some framework how it should be treated. This occurs more times in the Bible, a law for the Gentile's in the New Testament and then not. I may send your reply to my reverend who is a trained doctor in religion to get a sentence to sum it up-I think she could break this up very easily.

There is also other ways of being a slave too in the New Testament and in bondage....you can be in bondage to sin. A master and servant relationship can extend to someone you work for as well like the Parable of the Gold coins. Some people also see themselves as likes slaves to Christ and dependant on his vine for life and that is their choice if done freely.You know the Beautitudes well and although I prefer not to be perscueted and so does Christ..he acknowledges when it happens it can be richly rewarded in the faith in the next life and that it is not without meaning.

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For me God is the creator of all with a lot of decisions to be met for the world and the next generations to come. Please know that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, but just giving further understanding to my experiences and thoughts. I am of African hertiage a woman who is diagnosed with autism and battled from severe life threatening anorexia at points. God has never abonded me and I struggle like anyone else and most people try and do my best. He has given me preistly robes to wear in my life freely and steadfastly with love with a free spirit by loving him. I can tell from my interaction that God is not in support of racism or slavery and it is a case by case thing. He has shown me his kind face and I go by that as well. Just some evidence of one of the conditions I mentioned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEZskmKRASI

The Bible is pro-slavery - both the Old and New Testament. I cut out many scriptures from my post although I could also provide the work of reputable Bible scholars (such as that of Dr. Dan McClellan and Dr. Bart Ehrman) as well. However, this thread is centered on venting about religion, so I’m not sure how in-depth the OP wants to go on any particular topic.

I was replying to what had been discussed. I will further my research which I find interesting away from here I agree. Each prophet carried a special calling from God and message. I will recap on all of Moses and Aaron's again as they was the Chosen ones in the Book of Numbers. What do their messages all really say I need to recap on all these myself and also was they adhered to by the Israelites.